Offset Front Wheel ...

[diverdon]

      Whew ..Thanks Alan ..That's a BUNCH of help .. I will take the front wheel apart later this week ..Just to nice outside ..I ride in the morning and evening ..(usually) ..
         I was thinking this Crystilyte module uses the same 3 wires the MP5 does ... Found the perfect plug on Amazon ..from your help .... Is this a waste of time ? ..can I actually destroy/hurt something trying this .. I like the cruise .."Try" to set it for 7 mph and then use the gears to keep some pressure on the petals to get a "Little" exercise .... The speed can be hard (Poor Me) to set sometimes ...while bouncing along ... My thought was the crystalyte module could adjust the speed up or down a little ... I have seen posts that say it doesn't adjust the speed much and others that say each speed adjustment is "more than a Little" ... Do you have any experience with this ..Stinks if I cannot at least try it ...$56 bucks with shipping ..Oh well Hobbys aren't always cheap ..
        Thank You so much for your help ... Once I get this offset wheel thing settled either way I will stop bugging you so much .. I really like this Kit but just cannot seem to leave this offset wheel alone .. It works fine ..Just like to try it with the wheel centered ...

[diverdon]

 

      Here is the page that gave me the idea ..both switches use the same 3 wires ..different colors but described as the same thing ..the MP5 has an extra wire for the horn and the crystilyte has 1 that just says ..."not used" ..

      I totally understand if it wont work ..like trying to put a Chevy turn signal switch in a Ford .. Different technology ... Thanks again for all your help .... I'm sorry but I can't find anyone or a forum with the help you give ...   https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/main-forum/general-discussions/91876-electronic-throttle-lock-with-brake-release-and-slight-power-adjustability

[Bikemad]

Don, I'm not sure where you've seen "both switches use the same 3 wires ..different colors but described as the same thing", as this is certainly not the case.

The MP5 4 pin Horn/Cruise switch connector only contains one of the four required wires for the Crystalyte cruise control (the ground wire).
It does not have a +5V wire.
It does not have a throttle signal wire.
It does not have a brake signal wire.
This is why you do not need a four pin Higo connector as you cannot simply connect the Crystalyte cruise control to the MP5's 4 pin connector.

Of the four wires that the Crystalyte cruise control needs to connect into the Magic Pie 5 wiring, three are located in the 5 pin throttle connector (Throttle signal, Ground and +5V) and one in the 3 pin brake connector (Brake signal):



Although all four of the required wires can be found in the the MP5's main harness 10 pin connector, I have been unable to find any 10 pin plugs and sockets that would match the MP5 harness connectors.

It look like connecting that cruise control to the Magic Pie wiring harness is not going to be straightforward, and it could require cutting open the existing MP5 wiring to make the required connections.

It may be possible to solder the three throttle wires directly into the MP5's throttle unit or splice them into the throttle cable to get the cruise control to function, but without the brake signal connection it would have to be cancelled manually every time it was used, or it would automatically resume at the previously set cruising speed when the brakes were released.

I haven't tried a Crystalyte cruise control, but you can see one being used in this video, but I don't know if it would behave the same with a Magic Pie controller. 

Alan
 

[diverdon]

     Hello Alan ... Well you saved me the $$$ of buying that plug and the hassle of soldiering wires ... I had looked at the same wiring diagram you showed me and ..I Thought ..on the 4 pin plug for the Cruise/Horn module that Pin #1 was Throttle signal ..it says Cruise Signal Now I guess their different .. Pin # 4 says Battery ...so that's not 5 volts but rather battery voltage ?? .. I watched the video and cannot tell how much each push stepped up the power doesn't matter I cannot use it ...
 
     So ...I "Might" have the answer to the off center wheel ..after you told me about the washers that go inside the forks I was just looking at the forks and thinking how those washers would sit ..While looking I "May" have noticed something ...1 fork seems/looks ? like it might be Bent at the very bottom ...Just above where it bolts in ... And thats the side the wheel is to close to ... Perhaps 3 years ago when I installed this I tightened the controller side first ? and then when I tightened the other side it bent ? Here's a picture .. I still cannot be sure ..gonna take it apart this weekend ..
 
     I sent a message to Golden motors about the washers ...4 bucks apiece ..OK but then nearly $20 for shipping ... I gotta think on that one ... Maybe I can trade this useless Cruise module ..Thank You Sooo much again for your help ..There's nothing more I'd like to be done with this "problem" and not bugging you ...Your a really good Guy helping all these people ...Don J. 

[diverdon]

     Hello All .... Alan Hi ... I have gotten a pic from Golden Motors of a wheel from the top view ... I blew it up and it looks like "maybe" the Rim is spoked off center of the Motor/Hub to the controller side ... This would explain why mine is off ... as mine is spoked with the center of the rim directly above the center of the Motor/Hub assy. ....

         I am really not sure about this from this picture ...In you experience ...Does it seem toe Rims are spoked a little to the controller side of the hub/motor assy ??

       I have received the washers for the inside of the fork legs and will install them next week ... I have just finished a repair on my car and have had enough "mechanicing" for a while ... The Bike works perfectly the car we have to wait and see... Thanks So Much for any advice You Can Give Me  .. Don

[Bikemad]

Hi Don,

That picture shows a front wheel with its rim correctly centred on the axle instead of the motor.

Yours should look the same as the one in the photo, but you need to adjust the spokes as previously explained:

I would start at the valve and then slacken in turn the nipples of all 18 spokes on the side of the rim that is closest to the fork one complete turn until I reached the valve again.
I would then tighten each nipple on the 18 opposite side spokes one complete turn until I reached the valve for the second time and then check the offset.

You may have to repeat this process several times (using smaller or larger adjustments as necessary) until the rim is properly centred within the forks.

You may also want to readjust your front brakes after the rim has been correctly centred. 

I'm looking forward to seeing a picture of your front wheel correctly centred within the forks.

Alan
 

[diverdon]

  I'm pretty sure your tired of hearing about this ... Golden Motors has been working with me too on this off center deal ... They sent me a picture of a wheel assy. When I blew up the pic I could see the rim was spoked off center to the Hub/motor assy . to the Controller side of the wheel assy.
   
   Mine is spoked with the rim directly above the motor/hub assy. Soooo Finally we agreed that is the reason ... I have been totally happy with this kit ..ride it almost every day ... I was just checking in to see if this issue had been corrected from when I installed it in 2019 ..

    When I first installed this you/Bikemad helped me with the off center brake adjustment problem and it "seemed" to me this wheel was just the normal one you got ...

    Perhaps I will try "dishing" the wheel some day .... I ruined my first kit messing with the spokes so I'm sorta scared of that ..It works I ride most every day ... I really appreciate all you have taught me ..about the "Lawyer Lips" and the other washers I needed inside the fork ..and how to set up the brakes ..and battery stuff and the list goes on ....Thanks So Much ...Really

[diverdon]

   geesh ...I just looked at your reply from a while back where you told me this was the problem ..sorry I didn't pay attention ...

[diverdon]

 

      Hello , I have been fighting this offset wheel for quite a while ..It has come down to the wheel must be dished to get the offset out .... Tonight I tried to adjust the spokes ...didn't go well ..

       I loosened all of them on the side I wanted the rim to move "from" ..1 turn ...then went to tighten all of them on the other side to pull the wheel over..They all got the 1 turn but were pretty tight .. If the wheel moved over at all it wasn't much ..

     Now the Problem ... I decided to go 1 more turn ...went to loosen the side the rim needs to move from and found that they were mostly pretty loose ...still I took 1 turn out loosening them all evenly ....

    So .. I went to tighten the other side to pull the wheel over and all/most of the spokes were pretty tight already ... I got the 1 turn of tightening on them but their real tight ..can there be damage from overtightening ?
 
    Worst of all the loosening side was still loose ...It seemed like the rim didn't move at all ...The one side spokes are really tight and the other had some finger loose ....I retightened the loose ones 1 1/2 turns just to get it reasonably tight ... So in the end I have 1 side tightened 2 turns and 1 side loosened 1/2 turn ...

      I read somewhere about "spoke bind" ..I have no Idea what this is but thought it might have something to do with it ....

       I took the bike apart to put the washers on the inside of the forks and went ahead and tried this "wheel dishing" while I was at it ...I just Hope I haven't made any new problems .. 

[Bikemad]

Don, I have merged your last post into this "Offset Front Wheel ..." thread to keep everything together for easier reference to photos of the problem and advice previously given.

As your rim is not wanting to move further sideways by adjusting the spokes, I'm beginning to think that the problem may be the forks - not the wheel.
Did you carry out any of the previously suggested checks while the wheel was removed to confirm whether it was the wheel or the forks that was causing the offset?

Hi Don,

Have you tried reversing the wheel in your forks to confirm whether the offset is due to bent forks or an incorrectly dished wheel?
Once you have confirmed which of the two items is causing the problem, you will know which will need to be corrected.

Either the wheel will need to be dished correctly if its offset is wrong or the forks will need to be straightened if they are found to be bent sideways.

If, as I suspect, the wheel is not dished correctly, the spokes will need to be adjusted as I previously described if you want the wheel to be properly centred.

If you are too reluctant to attempt adjusting the spokes, and are happy to ride your bike with the offset rim, please stop worrying about it.

I also noticed in your video that you still don't have the two axle washers fitted inside the dropouts:



These are very important as they will prevent the axle from damaging your fork dropouts.

If the washers were omitted because there was insufficient space for then to fit between the dropouts, it could also be an indication that your forks may have been squeezed together slightly, and one fork leg may have been bent inwards further than the other, adding to the offset rim problem.

You should have ~100mm (~4") gap between the inside face of both dropouts, and the dropouts should also be equidistant from the centreline of the fork steerer tube as shown below:



You may be able to insert a suitable piece of tubing or broom handle etc. into the fork steerer tube from below and then compare the distance from the outside of the tube/broom handle to each dropout to check if one fork leg is bent inwards more than the other.

If you still have the original front wheel, you can easily check if that rim is properly centred when the wheel is fitted (and when fitted back to front).
If the original rim is properly centred when fitted in both directions, the incorrect dishing of the MP5 rim must be the cause of the offset.

Alan
 

To check if your forks have been pushed sideways, simply reverse the wheel in the forks. If the fork dropouts are offset, the rim offset should remain the same (and in the same direction)[/i].

Check out this YouTube video for more useful information regarding fork alignment checks.

I have just been studying all of your photos again, and upon close inspection, it would appear that the forks may be the cause.

I pasted one of your photos into a drawing package and then rotated the image until the axle was perfectly horizontal and the wheel perfectly vertical.
I then added some vertical lines from the inside of the dropouts and here is the result:



The dropouts do not appear to be equidistant from the dotted fork centreline as they should be, and the outwards slope of the fork legs appear to be very different between the left and right fork legs when compared to the vertical yellow lines.

It looks to me as if the left fork leg has definitely been bent inwards as the fork leg is almost parallel with the vertical line instead of being angled out at the bottom like the right fork leg!
When I superimposed a mirrored version of the right fork leg directly over the left fork leg (mirrored exactly on the fork centreline) you can clearly see a big difference in the dropout positions indicated by the distance between the red and yellow vertical lines on the left:



Even if the wheel in the original was not perfectly aligned and perpendicular to the camera lens, I think it is close enough to show that the fork dropouts are not equally offset from the fork centreline.

I think you may have to take a much closer look at your forks.

Alan
 

[diverdon]

 
    Hi Alan ... Thanks for the reply ..just finished rechecking the tightness of everything I took loose and setting the brake up ... I got the washers in without removing the wiring ..I did look at the fork legs ..look straight to me also checked the lawyer lip washers you told me about and the 2 Torque arms ....
   
   Everything seemed fine ...and ..I already had the Theory/Idea that the Spokes needed adjusting so I didn't try the original wheel ... Golden Motors sent me a Pic of a wheel where the rim is offset from the hub/motor and that's why I thought mine needed adjusting ...

    Which side do you call the left side ? From sitting on the bike or from head on ? I guess I should have tried the original rim in the dropout it might have showed something ..some type of clue ..

    Why do you think the rim didn't dish any from the adjustments ? And more important ..should I reset them to "factory" settings ? right now the controller side is 2 turns tighter ..nearly stripped ... and the other side is 1/2 turn loose from stock ..

     Did you see the picture from Golden motors where the rim was offset from the wheel ? Compared to mine that is ... I had to blow it up to see it ..

   Thanks again ... I didn't want to mess with this ..but while I had the wheel apart ...Thanks Again ..Don J. 

[diverdon]

     How would you know if the wheel isnt in the dropout even ? causing "tilt" As soon as you turn the handlebars a little the wheel does tilt some  .. I have had this in and out several times for tires and tubes ..It always goes back the same I have used a Mallet and 2X4 to check the seating .... I ride this a lot ..the tire doesn't seem to wear weird ..the steering goes straight .... Doesn't "Feel" tilted ..however that would feel ..
 
      Just looking at all the answers to this that I can .... I do remember back in 2019 when I built this bike asking ..you..in this forum about this problem and specifically about the dragging brakes and you explained "I thought " the wheels were built this way for the Disc Brake ...You also explained how to shim the Rim Brake Pads to work ....

      So I was going along from late 2019 just fine ...Then just for "fun" I asked If Golden Motors had found a Fix for the off center wheel ... And to my surprise it seems I'm the only one with this issue ..

     Guess I should try 1 Diagnosis at a time ...maybe taking the wheel off ...again and trying the stock wheel is the next best move .. Perhaps that will tell me something ... I do remember reversing the MP5 when I first Installed it and it was offset the other way ..and ran backwards ..

   Thanks for your help almost would just like to go back to before I messed with it ..The over/undetightened spokes are my worry now ...Have I made the Problem Worse

[diverdon]

     Hello All ... Here is the E-mail I just sent to Golden Motors ... Maybe someone here can help ..Thinking maybe the axle isn't clamping in like it should

      Have it apart again ..3rd time in 3 days ..still trying to figure this out ..It (the Bike ) did a couple of crazy things on the 2 test rides .. I seems "Maybe" the axle isn't holding still even with the 2 torque arms ... I set up the brakes ..then they start binding after a short while and I have to readjust them ...either I'm not doing something right with the brakes or ...the wheel assy. is slipping out on one side or going in more on the other ..either one of these would cause wheel tilt ...
 
      I cannot see the tilt if it's there but just wonder if it's happening ... On the second time I took it apart I was very careful to tighten both sides evenly and watch that the axle didn't move when tightened .. I was very happy as it "Looked" like the offset wasn't as much ... I even had to set up the brakes with different washers for the changed distance ...

      When I pushed the bike out the door for the test ride ..the front wheel fell off a 2-3 inch drop from the sidewalk ..even before I got on the brakes seemed to be dragging ... Can't ride like that ..So I redid the brakes and went for a 40 minute ride ..maybe 6 miles ...I had stopped once to turn around and felt the brakes dragging again .. seems the wheel got closer on the non-controller side ..I disconnected the front brake to get home ..
 
      Thinking "Maybe" one side is slipping down..hard to picture with the weight of the bike on it ....Or Maybe 1 side is going into the dropout more .."somehow" and making the wheel "tilt" ... I am just trying to figure this out now ...Sure would be nice to talk to someone about this ... I have a Drs. Appointment Today so I may not be able to work on it much ..Sure would like to "Fix" it ... 561-337 8299 .. 

[diverdon]

     Welll ...My next try is gonna be to attempt to "clamp" the motor in the dropout better ... as my "testing" has led me to believe that somehow either one side is falling out of the dropout or the other is somehow going in further ... I had the wheel pretty centered and it went off center or "tilted" on a short ride ..

    Gonna use the washers Golden motors sent me for the inside of the forks to make custom deep Lawyer Lip washers ..Just to make sure their wide enough for the lawyer lip depth .. It looks close with the ones I had... Maybe? it was bottoming out before it clamped ...
 
     Think I'm going to rough up all the mating surfaces for a better grip .. I have some Tabbed washers I can use on the inside of the fork ..

    This is all I can think to do ...Open for suggestions ... I had it pretty centered and it somehow moved to where it's been for 2 years by itself on a short ride ...

[Bikemad]

Which side do you call the left side ? From sitting on the bike or from head on ?

The left side is the controller side (on the left when sitting on the bike).

The over/undetightened spokes are my worry now ...Have I made the Problem Worse

As long as your spokes are all tightened evenly it should not be a problem, and any rim offset should have been improved, even if it was only by a small amount.
I tend to tighten my spokes as tight as possible (without rounding off the flats on the nipples) to prevent them from working loose.

If the distance between the rim and the forks is changing then the wheel is definitely moving in the dropouts. I suspect that the axle nuts and torque arm fixings may need to be tightened more securely to prevent the axle from moving.

You are the only one who is in a position to closely inspect the forks, dropouts and axle fixings to try and locate the actual cause of the problem.
try swapping the "C" washers from one side to the other to see if it affects the offset, as it is possible that one may have been reshaped differently to the other, causing the axle to locate further into one dropout.
You may have to file the dropout slight on one side to allow the axle to go in further to help centre the rim better.

Unfortunately, pictures do not always show things correctly due to differences in distance, perspective and lens distortion. The picture from Golden Motor has not been taken from the ideal position as the rim was not perfectly aligned with the centre of the camera's lens and therefore appears to be more offset than it actually is:



As you can see from the vertical line above, the wheel is leaning slightly to the left in relation to the camera lens, making the rim look like it is offset even more to the left.

It is difficult to compare the photo of your wheel with this photo as your wheel was much closer to the camera, and also has a tyre fitted which obscures more of the hub, making the offset rim less noticeable.

Think I'm going to rough up all the mating surfaces for a better grip

Applying a thin smear of coarse grinding paste on the mating flat surfaces of the torque arms, washers and dropouts can help to prevent any movement when they are properly tightened, as the coarse particles bite into the metal and help to lock the surfaces together. 

Alan