Offset Front Wheel ...

[diverdon]

 
   Hello all I was just wondering if Golden Motors has found a solution to the offset rim/wheels on their front hub motors ...Here's the quote from Bikemad on the subject

    The offset wheel rims on the original spoked Magic Pies was due to the narrow flange design of the original motor ring which was unfortunately centered within the offset hub instead of the dropouts, which is why I had to modify mine by adding an additional flange ring to allow the rim to be properly centered:

     It's where he describes it as .. " Unfortunate " .. that get's me .. Just wondering if they have identified this and better yet fixed it ... I love my Magic Pie and ride most every day ...people ask about it and I'd like to recommend them ...But ... I cannot look someone in the eye and say ..." That's Normal " ...

[Bikemad]

Hi Don,
I thought I had already explained in this post that the problem with the offset spoked rim was corrected (along with the excessive spoke angles) when the MPII was introduced over a decade ago.
Shortly after my suggested solution to cure offset rims back in January 2010, GM took my advice and the MPII was developed to correct the two major problems with the original Magic Pie, the offset wheel rim and the poorly aligned spokes caused by the excessive angle between the rim and the spokes:

Alan, You have done great job!

Golden Motor will take your suggestions and modify the motor ring to off-center like your modifications. Basically we will use thicker motor ring (30mm instead of current 23mm) and machine it to become off-centered.

Thanks for all your support. We will give you some rewards for your effort to help us improve our products.

Philip Yao

President of Golden Motor

All spoked Magic Pies produced since 2011 (MPII, MPIII, MP4 and MP5) should no longer suffer with offset rims or badly aligned spokes.

Just wondering if they have identified this and better yet fixed it

Hopefully you should now realise that the offset rim problem was quickly identified and subsequently fixed a long time ago. 

Alan
 

[diverdon]

   Hi Alan ...and once again ...thanks for your help ...Been riding most every day for close to 2 years on this one and it has never failed me ...
    I was just checking in to see if this problem had been cured and have now seen more of your work with GM ..Helping them figure this out ...

  " If a spoked rim is offset on a MPII, MPIII, MP4 or MP5, it is because the rim was not properly centred during assembly, and it should be possible to sort this simply by readjusting the spokes correctly."
 
   so are you saying here the wheel I have was assembled wrong ? This is a MP 5 .... If I could get it fixed it would be great ... I have had 2 front hub kits that had this offset wheel a 500 watt and now this MP5 100 watt ... I'd even pay for a new motor if I knew it would be centered ...
 
    Any Advice you can give would be deeply appreciated ...perhaps I should just keep riding it and not worry about it ... If I hadn't seen it I wouldn't know it was off ...But ...I just cannot recommend this kit as I couldn't look someone in the eye and say ..."That's Normal"
     
  Thanks again for Listening and all your help ...

[diverdon]

    Hi Alan .. I'm confused I bought this MP5 Vector in 2019 and it has the offset wheel problem ... I read where this was "Fixed" in 2011 ..

     All spoked Magic Pies produced since 2011 (MPII, MPIII, MP4 and MP5) should no longer suffer with offset rims or badly aligned spokes.

[Bikemad]

Is it just me having a déjà vu moment? 

Your MP5 should not have the offset rim problem, so there are three possible causes:

• Your wheel has not been fitted in the correct upright position and is tilted slightly to one side. The wheel will need to be refitted into the fork dropouts making sure it is in a perfectly upright position.
• The hub has more spacer washers (or Torque arms etc.) on one side than the other.
• The spokes were not originally fitted with the rim perfectly centred and will need to be adjusted to bring the rim into the correct central position.

Hi Don,

It's the hub that needs to be slightly offset to the right to allow additional room for the brake disc on the left - not the rim.

If you have a cast 16" or 18" front wheel and suspension forks, there is not much that can be done to reduce the offset. I may be possible the tweak non-suspension steel forks slightly to reduce the offset.
However, the cast 20" front wheel should be correctly centred if GM have followed my suggestions correctly.

A spoked rim can be offset slightly to the left in relation to the motor, so it can still be correctly centred between the forks provided that the spokes have been correctly adjusted and tensioned.

If you have a spoked front wheel and your rim is not centred between the forks, it should be possible to adjust it (after making sure that the wheel has been installed perfectly upright in the fork dropouts) by adjusting the spokes to bring it into the correct position.
I would start at the valve and then slacken in turn the nipples of all 18 spokes on the side of the rim that is closest to the fork one complete turn until I reached the valve again.
I would then tighten each nipple on the 18 opposite side spokes one complete turn until I reached the valve for the second time and then check the offset.

You may have to repeat this process several times (using smaller or larger adjustments as necessary) until the rim is properly centred within the forks.

Hopefully you can understand what I'm trying to explain.



Alan
 

Make sure your axle is located fully into both dropouts ensuring the wheel is perfectly upright. If it is not, you may have to file the dropouts slightly until it fits in fully.

If the rim is still offset within the forks, follow my previous instructions to get the rim properly centred within the forks and then adjust your brakes if necessary to ensure they too are properly centred and not binding.

Alan
 

[diverdon]

 

      Hi Alan ... Thanks for your help ... The wheel ..axle is in the dropout correctly ... It has a slotted axle and will only go in one way ...Fits perfect ... I have used torque arms on both sides since the beginning ..I think I once sent a video on here of the dropout "slop" I thought was a problem and you told me it was OK ..
       
     The wheel/rim is off quite a bit ...It has been this way since I got it ... It works fine ...But ..I'd like to fix it if possible .. Don't think adjusting the spokes will move it that much ... also on my 1st Magic Pie ...Long ago I had a motor relaced to another size MP Rim ...Never worked ..broken/loose spokes ..ruined the kit.. so I'm afraid to mess with the spokes ... This came to me this way ... I asked about it in 2019 and ended up thinking there was no fix ... I was just checking back last week to see if there was a fix yet and learned some new things ...
       How do you suppose I got this kit with the offset wheel in the first place ? If I was to buy a new one today would it have the tire centered when I mounted it ? I don't understand how this could have happened when they "fixed" the problem long ago ...
   
      Sorry this is so long ...thanks again for your help ...Just trying to explain .. I'd just like to fix it if I can without the chance of destroying it ... 

[diverdon]

     Hello All ..
                       Rained today so I took apart the motor dropout to make sure it's all the way in .. It is .. I am trying to understand this .. The hub/motor is offset due to the controller bulge ...This only goes in 1 way ..The axle is slotted to fit the dropout ... The "slotted" part ends and that's where it spaces itself in the dropout ...fits perfect ...so the rim/tire is offset due to it being exactly above the offset hub/motor > I see where Bikemad worked with goldenmotors to fix this but mine is from 2019 and should be in the "fixed" ones ... I would just like to figure out the problem ... How far over can you "dish" the wheel ? and why do I have 1 that needs "dishing" ?
       Thanks for any help you can give ... I just can't see it ..The only Fix I can see is dishing the rim over and am not sure how far it could move without binding the spokes on the hub/motor ...

[diverdon]

This is what I sent in the Golden Motors Ticket I have submitted ... Their maybe having a hard time communicating with me .. Maybe this can help explain the Problem ... 


It has rained the last 2 days ..so I took apart the wheel to make sure it was in the dropout all the way .. It is ..sorta a pain as I have to deal with the special washer for the Lawyer Lip and the other 2 washers with the torque arm ..

    anyhow it's in all the way ..both sides .. Here's what I see .. the axle threads are cut to make it fit the dropout ..where the threads stop is where it naturally fits the dropout ..no other way to install it fits perfect ... 2. the motor/hub must be offset to allow for the controller to be mounted in the hub ... so the hub/motor is mounted off center in the dropout ..think this might have something to do with the disc brake which I do not have ... 3. so with the hub/motor off center in the dropout and the rim/tire designed to be directly above the motor/hub it can only be off center ...

      The only way this can maybe be corrected is to "dish" the wheel ..... 1. I don't understand why I should need to dish the wheel ... this is not some strange bike ..Electra Townie ..very common .. The Kit was designed with the offset wheel .. 2.  I am not sure this can be "dished" that much ...the spokes bind against the motor if you go to far..

      I'm happy with the bike except for that ..Magic Pie has never let me down ... When this started I was just looking in to see if there had been and changes to make the tire/rim in the center ... Bikemad said I shouldn't have the problem it was cured years ago ... You guys say I'm the only one ... Makes me think this  has some kind of problem and could be figured out ...Thanks for Listening ..Don       
   

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[diverdon]

Is it just me having a déjà vu moment? 

Your MP5 should not have the offset rim problem, so there are three possible causes:

• Your wheel has not been fitted in the correct upright position and is tilted slightly to one side. The wheel will need to be refitted into the fork dropouts making sure it is in a perfectly upright position.
• The hub has more spacer washers (or Torque arms etc.) on one side than the other.
• The spokes were not originally fitted with the rim perfectly centred and will need to be adjusted to bring the rim into the correct central position.

Hi Don,

It's the hub that needs to be slightly offset to the right to allow additional room for the brake disc on the left - not the rim.

If you have a cast 16" or 18" front wheel and suspension forks, there is not much that can be done to reduce the offset. I may be possible the tweak non-suspension steel forks slightly to reduce the offset.
However, the cast 20" front wheel should be correctly centred if GM have followed my suggestions correctly.

A spoked rim can be offset slightly to the left in relation to the motor, so it can still be correctly centred between the forks provided that the spokes have been correctly adjusted and tensioned.

If you have a spoked front wheel and your rim is not centred between the forks, it should be possible to adjust it (after making sure that the wheel has been installed perfectly upright in the fork dropouts) by adjusting the spokes to bring it into the correct position.
I would start at the valve and then slacken in turn the nipples of all 18 spokes on the side of the rim that is closest to the fork one complete turn until I reached the valve again.
I would then tighten each nipple on the 18 opposite side spokes one complete turn until I reached the valve for the second time and then check the offset.

You may have to repeat this process several times (using smaller or larger adjustments as necessary) until the rim is properly centred within the forks.

Hopefully you can understand what I'm trying to explain.



Alan
 

Make sure your axle is located fully into both dropouts ensuring the wheel is perfectly upright. If it is not, you may have to file the dropouts slightly until it fits in fully.

If the rim is still offset within the forks, follow my previous instructions to get the rim properly centred within the forks and then adjust your brakes if necessary to ensure they too are properly centred and not binding.

Alan

          Hi Alan ... It rained for 2 days so I took the bike apart again to check the installation ... In all the way ... I have the Lawyer Lip washers you taught me about and 2 torque arms ... The motor/hub mounts off center ...the controller side is wider the other side is closer ... The rim/tire is directly above the motor/hub assy ..so it's naturally off center ..this was bought in 2019 ... I looked into it then and assumed they were all like this ... Just recently I have been asking if the problem has been solved and I could buy me 4th one to get one that's centered ... Golden Motors so far has not been able to tell me if it's "fixed" .....
      Do the new motors come with the rim laced off center to make up for the motor/hub being off center from the controller ? I can't seem to get thru to Golden Motors about this question ...Either I or they don't understand ..
       Thanks Again for your help ... Wonder how many people you've helped ...Don

[Bikemad]

The motor/hub mounts off center ...the controller side is wider the other side is closer ... The rim/tire is directly above the motor/hub assy ..so it's naturally off center ..this was bought in 2019 ... I looked into it then and assumed they were all like this ... Just recently I have been asking if the problem has been solved and I could buy me 4th one to get one that's centered ... Golden Motors so far has not been able to tell me if it's "fixed" .....
      Do the new motors come with the rim laced off center to make up for the motor/hub being off center from the controller ? I can't seem to get thru to Golden Motors about this question ...Either I or they don't understand ..
       Thanks Again for your help ... Wonder how many people you've helped ...Don

Hi Don,

I previously said there were three possible causes:

Your MP5 should not have the offset rim problem, so there are three possible causes:

• Your wheel has not been fitted in the correct upright position and is tilted slightly to one side. The wheel will need to be refitted into the fork dropouts making sure it is in a perfectly upright position.
• The hub has more spacer washers (or Torque arms etc.) on one side than the other.
• The spokes were not originally fitted with the rim perfectly centred and will need to be adjusted to bring the rim into the correct central position.

However, another possible cause might be that the fork legs have somehow been bent sideways.
If your rim is incorrectly centred between the motor ring flanges , I believe it will be the third option from the three I previously mentioned:
The spokes were not originally fitted with the rim perfectly centred and will need to be adjusted to bring the rim into the correct central position.

Unfortunately, I don't know how or why this has happened, but it must have occurred when the wheel was assembled, but I don't believe that it would have been done intentionally.
I suspect it may be due to incorrect loading of the hub into an automatic wheel building machine resulting the incorrect offset (or the correct offset but in the wrong direction) or perhaps the wheel has simply been laced manually by hand without the use of a rim centring jig. 

However, I'm still pretty sure that it will be possible to centre it correctly on your forks, purely by adjusting the spokes, assuming that your fork legs are not misaligned (i.e. both of the fork legs have not been pushed sideways in the same direction).

Did you watch this video showing how to adjust wheel dish that Tommycat posted a link to in this post?

If you want to check if your forks have been pushed sideways, simply reverse the wheel in the forks. If the fork dropouts are offset, the rim offset should remain the same (and in the same direction).

Check out this YouTube video for more useful information regarding fork alignment checks.

If my suspicions are correct, the rim offset would be transferred to the opposite fork leg, confirming that the incorrect dishing of the wheel is causing the offset rim, not the forks.

After carefully studying your pictures, I noticed that you don't have any axle washers inside the dropouts. 
Axle washers must be fitted inside the fork dropouts to prevent the axle from damaging the dropouts.

The washers should be fitted similar to the rear motor installation shown below:





If you don't have sufficient axle length to install axle washer on both sides of the dropouts, the "C" washers and the torque arms and nuts etc., I suggest that you put the tabbed washers on the inside of the dropouts and just use the torque arms on the outside of the lawyers lip "C" washers instead.

On my Smart Pie front wheel installation, I fitted the torque washers on the inside of the dropouts:


I also hammered over the tabs on the tabbed torque washers so that they were properly located within the dropouts (making them functional) as shown in the above photo.

Alan

P.S. I don't know how many people I've helped,  I just try to help as many as I can. 
 

[diverdon]

     Hello All .. my first video ever ..sorry about the quality ... I have rechecked all the things that could be wrong ...The motor is in the dropuots all the way ...with lawyer lip washers and torque arms on both sides .. The Axle is "spaced" properly in the dropout ..It will only go one way with the Interrupted threads on the axle ...
       The only possible cure I see is "Maybe" dishing the wheel ...it needs to move 10 mm over ...Not sure it will move that far ... why should I need to "dish" it this is a common bike ... I still feel it was just designed this way .... This is a 2019 MP 5 which this problem is said to be "fixed" ...

     Hope this video makes it easier to see the problem ..I DO Appreciate any suggestions or help I can get ...Here's the link to My first ever video .. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrUQdr_yjUo

           
   
   

[Bikemad]

Hi Don,

Have you tried reversing the wheel in your forks to confirm whether the offset is due to bent forks or an incorrectly dished wheel?
Once you have confirmed which of the two items is causing the problem, you will know which will need to be corrected.

Either the wheel will need to be dished correctly if its offset is wrong or the forks will need to be straightened if they are found to be bent sideways.

If, as I suspect, the wheel is not dished correctly, the spokes will need to be adjusted as I previously described if you want the wheel to be properly centred.

If you are too reluctant to attempt adjusting the spokes, and are happy to ride your bike with the offset rim, please stop worrying about it.

I also noticed in your video that you still don't have the two axle washers fitted inside the dropouts:



These are very important as they will prevent the axle from damaging your fork dropouts.

If the washers were omitted because there was insufficient space for then to fit between the dropouts, it could also be an indication that your forks may have been squeezed together slightly, and one fork leg may have been bent inwards further than the other, adding to the offset rim problem.

You should have ~100mm (~4") gap between the inside face of both dropouts, and the dropouts should also be equidistant from the centreline of the fork steerer tube as shown below:



You may be able to insert a suitable piece of tubing or broom handle etc. into the fork steerer tube from below and then compare the distance from the outside of the tube/broom handle to each dropout to check if one fork leg is bent inwards more than the other.

If you still have the original front wheel, you can easily check if that rim is properly centred when the wheel is fitted (and when fitted back to front).
If the original rim is properly centred when fitted in both directions, the incorrect dishing of the MP5 rim must be the cause of the offset. 

Alan
 

[diverdon]

  Thanks so much for the reply Alan ... A LOT to take in there ... I never knew about the washers going on the inside of the drop out ... I did learn from you about the Lawyer Lip washers and have then now . I did reverse the wheel when I first Built this Bike ..Bike was brand new Electra Townie .. and it reversed the off set.. plus wheel went backwards  ... I still have the original wheel and That's 1 check I can do ..

     When I first built this I put in a ticket and also you helped me ... I "thought" it was normal ..the motor/hub has the controller in it and is designed to work with disc brakes... makes it wider on 1 side  .. mine's rim brakes .... So Fat Dumb and Happy 3/ years later I'm just checking to see if this problem had been corrected ... Upon looking into it ..seems either it's installed wrong , something wrong/weird with the bike , or needs to be "dished"

     I took it apart..again ..this time with the wheel on the ground to take pictures for Golden Motors .. Axle is in all the way .. I asked should I grind the dropout or pull 1 side up some ..they told me if its in all the way that's it .. How would I even diagnosis a "crooked" wheel ? When I have some time I will flip it over And Inspect more deeply ..kinda a hassle ..gotta take a bunch of "stuff" off to flip it over ..
 
     I think I read somewhere that the wheels can only be dished so much as the spokes will hit the motor/hub ..Have you any experience with this ?

   1 last thing ..Do you know where I can get the plug on the cruise/horn switch .. I have found 1 of the crystilyte cruise control modules and want to try it .. I need the 4 pin female plug ..don't really want to buy a whole switch to get this plug ...any suggestions ..

     Thank You Sooo Much for taking the time to help me and many others .. I use this to get outside as I'm sorta handicapped ..can't walk or stand long but can ride this for hours ..really has improved my health .. Don J.

[diverdon]

       Hello Alan .. I have it stuck in my mind I must get those 2mm washers on the inside of the forks I have some 3mm ones but no 2 mm ones and I can't seem to find them on the internet ..Tried Golden Motors ..Grin Tech and a Google search ...only 3 mm ones ..Any tip where to find them? will the 3mm ones work ... I seem to remember the motor/axle fitting pretty tight ... I'm itching to take it apart and see if I can get to the bottom of the off centre wheel ... Thanks for your Help ... Don 

[Bikemad]

Do you know where I can get the plug on the cruise/horn switch .. I have found 1 of the Crystalyte cruise control modules and want to try it .. I need the 4 pin female plug ..don't really want to buy a whole switch to get this plug ...any suggestions ..

Don, I think that's a 4 pin Higo female connector but you don't need one as you can't connect the Crystalyte cruise control to the Pie's Cruise control circuit.



It has to be wired into the throttle and brake circuits:



Red = +5V
Black = Ground
Green = Throttle signal
Orange = Brake signal


Check out this thread on Endless-Sphere for further information.

Hello Alan .. I have it stuck in my mind I must get those 2mm washers on the inside of the forks I have some 3mm ones but no 2 mm ones and I can't seem to find them on the internet ..Tried Golden Motors ..Grin Tech and a Google search ...only 3 mm ones ..Any tip where to find them? will the 3mm ones work ... I seem to remember the motor/axle fitting pretty tight ... I'm itching to take it apart and see if I can get to the bottom of the off centre wheel ... Thanks for your Help ... Don

The 3mm washers that were supplied with the kit should be fine. If the gap between the dropouts is too narrow you may need to spread the fork legs apart slightly for the washers to fit in.

Alan