3kw Non-hub Moped Conversion help

[Knightgreider]

Hey everyone, I bought the non-hub 3kw fan cooling motor and the VEC200/72Vdc controller to convert a 1980 Garelli super sport into an electric cafe racer. This is my first major project. I recently joined so I could figure this out. I am so glad that this exists! I thought it would be plug and play, it was... almost. My project is using a contactor and 2 custom made 36v 10.5ah 18650 battery packs wired in series. My problem is that I hooked everything up yesterday and it worked!... for 3 seconds. Now every time I turn on the switch on the throttle grip the contactor turns on but the motor doesn't turn over at all. I double-checked all the connections and saw if I was getting the right voltage still to the controller. The controller blinks when the batteries are connected but I never figured out how to turn it off besides the switch on the throttle twist grip. I still can add an on-off switch, I suppose in one of the connections between the batteries and the controller.

The moderator "BikeMad" gave me some good advice about my project.

I am looking to see what he meant by a GM brake lever for regen. I thought that it had regenerative braking already? He also said a brake switch. I didn't buy a brake switch when I bought my kit. I was looking through all the images online and I can't seem to find it. He said if I rigged one up, make sure it's turned off. Has anyone else rigged up a brake switch or have had this problem? If so, how do I do that? Do I need a GM Brake lever? I found this topic:
https://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=5874.0
But I don't know if this pertains to me.

I plugged my controller into the computer and it still appears to be working correctly. So I know it's not destroyed.

Would this work for what I need? https://www.goldenmotor.ca/products/Three-Button-Switch-for-External-Controllers.html

Attached is my nerd self with the bike yesterday.

Thank you for any help I can get!

[Bikemad]

This is what I meant by the GM brake lever:



It incorporates a switch that stops the motor power and simultaneously engages the regen when the lever is pulled.

If you don't have GM brake levers (or any other form of brake switch) then you don't need to worry, as not having a brake switch will not cause your non-running problem. 

If the controller has full battery voltage across its input terminals (at least 72V) then the contactor is obviously closing correctly.

You might want to consider some form of precharge system (if not already incorporated) to extend the life of the contactor's contacts.

It is difficult to tell from your photo which wires are connected from the throttle unit and where they are connected to. Perhaps you can provide some more details on these connections and how the contactor is switched (I presume the battery feed goes to the throttle switch and then back to the 72V contactor's excitation terminal).

If you are using a 48V GM throttle, the green Battery gauge LED wire should not be connected, as 72~84V is likely to overload it causing it to run hot and probably fail very quickly. 

Failure of the Battery gauge circuit board due to higher than expected voltage should not present a problem, unless it failed in a short circuit state and the subsequent high current burns the wires coming from the throttle. 

The number of regular blinks from the controller should hopefully indicate where the fault lies, but you will need to check the table on page 5 of the user guide for more details.

Does the controller or motor make any noise when the throttle is operated?

Alan
 

[Knightgreider]

Hi Alan, I was on vacation sorry for the late response.

Were you talking about this GM Brake kit?
https://www.goldenmotor.ca/products/Brake-Levers-for-External-Controllers.html

I will look at the controller tomorrow when I have time to go to the garage. The controller was blinking. The controller or throttle doesn't make any noise when operated. 

Depending on my diagnosis I will get the GM brake kit and another throttle if I need one; based on the blinks right?

Thanks again for your help!

[Bikemad]

Were you talking about this GM Brake kit?
https://www.goldenmotor.ca/products/Brake-Levers-for-External-Controllers.html

Yes, but as I previously stated, if they are not fitted, they will not be causing the problem. They would only cause the motor not to run if they were fitted and one of them (or both) was not fully released and was still activating the brake switch:


(Click picture to enlarge.)

Hopefully the above picture will make it a little bit clearer.



You now need to determine what the fault code is (the number of regular blinks) to hopefully locate the problem.

Alan
 

[Motolittle]

 Hey there it sounds like you may have the same issue I did with the Hall sensors. See my previous post the one right before this one. I have the same motor and speed control. When I hooked mine all up it spun one time than would not work. I found it was a Hall sensor combination issue. If you have issues or more questions let me know.

[Knightgreider]

Hi BikeMad, I don't see any picture. 

And tonight, I'll look at my hall cables and fault code of the controller. But I don't know if was the same issue entirely. I only got my motor to turn over once... I don't have any brake switches so I thought I needed to connect one for them not to overload the throttle switch?

The throttle lights do flash for a split second, then nothing.

Thanks, everyone.

[Knightgreider]

BikeMad, I was at my job, they must have blocked the imaging service maybe. I am looking at it now. I gotcha. I don't have anything hooked up to the brake cable. Could have damaged my controller when I turned it on?

I got 5 blinking lights on the controller. So I tried everything that MotoLittle did and I found that whatever combination that I put the hall cables in I always get the 5 blinking lights.
 

I am getting around 72v on all of the hall cables when I check them when the batteries are plugged in.

[Motolittle]

Mine threw similar codes like that on the controller when I had a setting on the computer out of parameter it didnt like. Once I changed it back it worked again. Hope this helps! It took me two weeks of pulling my hair out and help from this amazing forum to figure it out. Also sweet build!!!   

[Knightgreider]

Hi Motolittle, do you remember what your settings were on that controller? I have mine set to default. I am interested to see what you changed to get it to work.

Thanks!

[Knightgreider]

Hey, guys, I am at a loss in trying to figure this out. I have been going over this for hours today and troubleshooting what it could be. I found this forum post https://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=6586.0 and it kind of scared me because I started it up without the 5v on/off switch and no brakes. Did I damage the hall sensors in the motor? It keeps giving me the code- “Hall input is abnormal.” And I am scared I damaged the controller or motor when I hooked it up last week.

I just ordered the on/off switch and the brakes, so we'll see if that matters when I get them.    Fingers crossed!

Thanks, everyone for any help you can give!

[Tommycat]

Your thread link just goes back to this thread...    But looking at a wiring diagram for your controller it looks like you need a switch, or at least a jumper on the E lock connector in order to test.
As the contoller needs energized (ignition wire)to put out 5 vdc for the hall sensor operation...
Missing this switch, or the brake switches will NOT harm the controller. But no E lock or ignition switch will keep it from operating.
And 72 volts at the hall sensors seems inaccurate. These would include the small yellow, green, blue, red and black wires going to the motor black cable connector. With 5 vdc going to the red and black wires with the controller energized.



Note: I'm just a humble Magic Pie 5 owner with no hands on experience with your system... But I can read a wiring diagram if this is yours...

Regards,
T.C.

[Knightgreider]

Whoops, I meant this thread. https://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=5957.15 Particularlly the post about how to the Hall Sensors could be damaged because when you check the Hall sensors in the motor, they all share the same +5V supply as the throttle Hall sensor. Do you think that if I get the e-lock from GM I won't have a problem.

In the time being, I don't know how to create a jumper wire on the e-lock connector? What plug-port to what plug-port would give me the jumper connection? According to the wiring diagram orange to red identified in the text, but in the images of the wires, I don't see them.

It was about 72v at the Yellow, Green, and Blue hall connections to the controller when I put it voltmeter on the negative connection in the controller?

Also a question for when I get this working, the +12v would work for lights and other 12v applications that is left over from the ICE components? Thanks.

Sorry, trying to learn as I go through the assembly.

Thanks everyone, you are all so helpful!

[Tommycat]

Do you think that if I get the e-lock from GM I won't have a problem.

I think that this will solve your issue...

In the time being, I don't know how to create a jumper wire on the e-lock connector? What plug-port to what plug-port would give me the jumper connection? According to the wiring diagram orange to red identified in the text, but in the images of the wires, I don't see them.

E-lock connector is on the bottom right. Top connector of the group. Red goes to Battery +. And is switched to orange, but on my screen the wire looks pink. If you hook up the red wire to the battery +, then you could just jumper across the connector's pins or holes... don't know which your working with. Or a straight jumper between battery + and the orange (pink) pin. Most controller activation circuits as this are typically low amperage so I don't think that would be a problem. 

It was about 72v at the Yellow, Green, and Blue hall connections to the controller when I put it voltmeter on the negative connection in the controller?

I'm thinking you were testing at the main PHASE wire connections The main large colored wires going to the motor? At U,V, & W... Other wise we have serious issues. 

Also a question for when I get this working, the +12v would work for lights and other 12v applications that is left over from the ICE components? Thanks.

Typically this is a very low power source from the controller. Perhaps less than .5 amp. And therefore probably unsuitable. I'll try to find out exactly. Unless Alan would chime in.

Sorry, trying to learn as I go through the assembly.

Me too! 

This is how someone made a jumper...





Oh, and in that thread you referenced. It sounds like the owner had inadvertently supplied 48 volts to the throttle hall sensor because he assumed the wiring was correct.  Never assume any thing, especially wire COLORS! As a result he cooked it. And since the throttle hall sensor shares the same power source as the motor hall sensors. It was suggested that they all be checked.

[Bikemad]

It was about 72v at the Yellow, Green, and Blue hall connections to the controller when I put it voltmeter on the negative connection in the controller?

I'm thinking you were testing at the main PHASE wire connections The main large colored wires going to the motor? At U,V, & W... Other wise we have serious issues. 

Are you sure the voltmeter was on the Negative controller connection? I'm hoping you were incorrectly measuring the voltage in relation to the Battery Positive (Red) instead of the battery - (Black) as this might explain why such a high voltage (~5V less than battery voltage) was measured at the Hall sensors (or the Phase wires).


However, if the meter was actually connected to the Battery Negative as stated, the only other causes I can think of would be:

• A direct short circuit between the +5V wire (or possibly the Throttle signal wire) and the Battery Feed wire (Normally used to power the LED Battery Gauge) on the Throttle wiring/connections. 
   
• The battery Gauge wire and +5V wire have been incorrectly connected (transposed) causing full battery voltage to be sent to the Throttle Hall sensor instead of +5V. This could blow the throttle Hall sensor allowing Battery voltage to flow back along the throttle signal wire to the controller   
   
• The battery Gauge wire and Throttle signal wire have been incorrectly connected (transposed) causing full battery voltage to be sent to the Throttle's Hall sensor. This might also blow the throttle Hall sensor, possibly allowing Battery voltage to feed back along the +5V wire to the controller 
   

Unfortunately, if any of the above has occurred, I suspect the controller may have been damaged, as a 5V circuit is unlikely to survive for very long on a 72V supply, and something is likely to die. 

Also a question for when I get this working, the +12v would work for lights and other 12v applications that is left over from the ICE components? Thanks.

Typically this is a very low power source from the controller. Perhaps less than .5 amp. And therefore probably unsuitable. I'll try to find out exactly. Unless Alan would chime in.

It is my understanding that the +12V high brake (optional) wire is used as an alternative input to operate the regen and power cutoff. This +12V signal input would come from the vehicle's existing 12V supply (a 12V battery and/or inverter) which would be switched via the original brake light switches.

This wire would simply connect into the brake light bulb feed wire so that it receive 12V input to operate the regen and power cutoff whenever the brakes are applied (just like the brake light bulb does).

If your bike already had a 12V system for lights, indicators, horn and radio etc. this enables the 12V output from the bike's original brake switches to be used to trigger the regen, cancel the cruise and safely cut the motor power when either of the brakes are applied.

I wouldn't expect the controller to actually supply a 12V feed via this wire, but as I don't have a controller to physically inpspect, I am unable to confirm my suspicions. 

It appears that we are all in the same boat here, as we are all still learning! 

Alan
 

[Tommycat]

I wouldn't expect the controller to actually supply a 12V feed via this wire, but as I don't have a controller to physically inpspect, I am unable to confirm my suspicions. 

Alan

Oppsy, it has input but no output...      LOL even less than I thought.    Thanks Alan.