Author Topic: My Magic Pie went dead (Pairing Magic pie with ecrazyman 1500w controller)  (Read 57968 times)

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Photos
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2012, 03:20:09 AM »
Thanks for the great photos.  It really helps me to understand the construction of the MP3.

Dennis, those photos (mine and Avantgarder's) were of the MPII, not the MPIII.

The stator inside the MPIII looks like this:

Right Hand Side.


Left Hand Side

The Left Hand side cover with the large bearing locates over the controller housing part of the stator, instead of the axle:


I hope this helps to clarify the main difference between the two motors.

Alan
 
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 09:00:18 PM by Bikemad »

Offline Leslie

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Re: My Magic Pie went dead
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2012, 04:01:34 AM »
I sanded and filled the sharp edges too. I then held the cable in with some tight winds of electrical tape and a layer of heat shrink to stop water getting into the tape.  It seemed to be much stronger using tape first. Getting multiple heat shrink layers over it helps but you can only go so far until the available widths make it unmanageable to get a thick sleeve.  So tape first and maybe one or two layer of heat shrink, and it works amazing. 

I had to do mine as the insulator was getting cut not by the circlip but being damaged by the end of cable tunnel in the axle.  So it is a good idea while ya there do a sand job on the axle cable tunnel.  or what ever ya call it.,

I was about to have a big battery short out with the internal controller.  You can still damage a BMS even with a decent fuse.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 02:45:26 AM by spellchecker »

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Offline Leslie

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Re: My Magic Pie went dead
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2012, 07:27:52 AM »
Hi,

If the metallic wire diameter is 4 mm it can carry about 35 amps safely.  I'm assuming your 4mm measurement does not include the insulation.   

TTFN,
Dennis

I managed 50A no problem 4mm, phase wire only though.  What ever your DC rating on the wire is, multiply that that by about 1.5 due to PWM and 3 phase behaves as AC.  Also remember nobody here actually runs 35amps full continuous.  A little resistance around the power train is handy with our smaller cheaper packs and controllers..

Our application is much different to many.   One maybe lucky to run 25 amps over 5 minute to the top of the hill max, and peak at 30A for seconds..

More people have had problems with fine core conductor rated below 50v with 52v packs, than 240v 10 amp extension cable. 

Funny as,  Too much weight towing a trailer, I melted my HBS windings, dipping and stator-plastic into stank, just using plain old fashion extension cable wire, the wire was not hot at all.  The motor was boiling.. 

And I bought this 4 guage rated at 50v for my pack main power conductors, for DC. The conductor literally started to turn black inside the insulator and over time turned freaking green and got brittle then started to fray, I'm pretty sure it was useless in a month and had more resistance than much smaller gauge with higher voltage ratings.  It not just how wide the cable is it matters how thick the strands are, if they are fine, high voltage is going to be your bitch then high resistance latter down the track.

Keep em short as possible and keep the controller not too far away from the battery.  Smaller gauge may waste some energy if it gets too long.  And AWG toooooo small it gets a warm.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 02:44:21 AM by spellchecker »

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Offline Leslie

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Re: My Magic Pie went dead
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2012, 07:41:16 AM »
Oh BTW,  Running the 50v 4 AWG, imo it was "charging" to the pack through this conductor @ 2 amps @ 60v is what caused the most damage of the conductor. No heat and very little resistance, just not enough under the skin of the core to take a high pressure electron force of 60v applied.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 07:43:01 AM by Les »

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Offline Leslie

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Re: My Magic Pie went dead
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2012, 07:59:44 AM »
What under the shrink wrap, Insulated copper or a silverish alloy?

If there is nothing under the shrink wrap and still cant get the bearing over it replace with copper insulated. 

If insulated remove the heatshrink.

If you replace with copper insulated. A little sanding off the insulator may help thin it just a tiny little bit..   
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 02:42:09 AM by spellchecker »

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Offline Leslie

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Re: My Magic Pie went dead
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2012, 08:06:25 AM »
Yes Denis. The 4mm^2 is copper only.
In fact since it's a flexible copper wire which consists of many small wires it should carry more current since it has more copper surface area. This is due to the fact that solid wires usually carry the current close to the surface area.

No not the case.  Many fine wires fits more conductor inside the insulator making more current pathways, and less core under the skin to support voltage pressure..  Thicker core strands equals less current pathways but much higher voltages. 

You're using high voltage wire prolly 3 phase grid conductor.  Not going to be ideal.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 02:41:21 AM by spellchecker »

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Offline Avantgarder

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Re: My Magic Pie went dead
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2012, 10:06:27 AM »
I managed to pull out the bearing using this tool that I improvised.
I also sanded all the sharp edges that meet wires.

Les,
Where were you man ? The entire Interpol was after you ...
I didn't get you.  If solid wires are not suitable and 220v flexible wires are not ideal , what would be the perfect solution for 50v 20A ?
Note that I don't want to wait another month for a shipment from the other side of planet earth so let's think of a solution that can be obtained from a hardware\electricity store...

Offline Leslie

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Re: My Magic Pie went dead
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2012, 10:42:34 AM »
There are 3 different effects that damage wires. 

1: Electron- hole pressure ionic break down

2: Electron-hole resistance, thermal break down .

3: physical damage.

1: High voltage pushes deeper into the conductor strands, and if too thin the electron pressure vs electron ionic bonding coherence of the strand conductor does bad things.

Where as voltages, the pressure shoves electron current into the conductor paths, and this is where ohms law comes into play. 

2:High current (I) and less strands = more resistance. The voltage has to divide into less current pathways.  V/I=R

However if your conductor strands are up to the task, the higher the voltages actually aids current as more electrons and holes is pushed through a single strand because of higher pressure, this causes lower resistance to current naturally..

1:So say if your wire is rated at 40v 100 amps and your pushing 50v through it at 1 amp.  Not all conductors are going to be used efficiently each strand being utilized to max potential becomes bombarded by energy and slowly each strand will break down and react with its environment..  Slowly each conductor strand fails until you have next to none left.  Slowly cutting current pathways until the last few remain, the resistance raises at 50v.  Not after too long you wont get 1 amp through this wire little only 100 amps.

2: Say your wire is rated at 60v 10 amps.  And youre pushing 50v @ 50 amps. There isnt enough voltage to interfere with the ion bonds in the conductor, but the current will be forced through all the strands less efficiently as the electron are not being pushed so deep into conductor and the strands are resistance resisting both the pressure and current permitted to flow though the conductor from point A to B .  Current (I) is multiplied by the resistance equals voltage.  I*R=V

Both current and volts shall be wasted using both.  50v/50A=1R and 50A*1R=50v, tells us if we short negative to positive we will have a 50v drop between Point A- and b+ and 50 amps shall pass.. 

The Volts by the amount of Amps being forced and impeded * to a 50v voltage drop and 50amps passage its indicative to the symbol *  between point A and B of the conductor. This causes heat,  Watts.

I*V=W  Causes thermal break down.

Volt rating is rated by how much volts each strand can take,

For current it's more of a guide to get you desired amps,  Consider cut off limit to V and the resistance of device, then the resistance per meter or the desired SI unit shall equal amps allowed. 

We must equate the entire voltage drop out of the fets to get an idea how much our phase wire will suffer under load.

Windings resistance are approx .01R

4 foot of 8awg is approx 0.004 ohms. 

20 amp controller approx 2.4 ohms ohms

Cheap 1C battery  .12

Power leads .001

Lets just say about 2.5 ohms full circuit.  50v/2.5 ohms = 20 amps.

We have all the stuff needed to calculate the voltage drop across the phase wires.. @ 20 amps.

2.5R - 0.004 =2.496R

20A*2.496R= 49.92v-

50v-49.92v =.8v

We have a .8v drop across our phase wire @ 20 amps.

16 watts per 4feet= 4 watts per foot. 

Consider PWM and 3 phase/4*3  = 3 watts per foot.    Gawd I don't know.  Depends on the frequency,

Imagine a foot long by 4mm diameter copper resistor burning 3 watts on max load.  Or .3% of the heat a 1000 watt stove element spread over a 4mm * 1 foot wire.

I have no idea how hot a stove element gets, lets plug in 500 deg C.  Generous figure at best I guess.

We are approximately adding 1.5 degC @ 20 amps to our phase wire,

Add another shunt to our controller @ 40 amps.  Total resistance now 1.3 ohms we can do 38 amps. A better pack gets us closer to 40 amps,

Save me the v drop  calculation and we will see about 7 watts/foot and 3.5 deg C on our phase conductor.  38 amps, That's close enough to 3Eman estimate.  Add a blob of solder over the shunt and we can do 50 amps easy.

Also consider that we are only dealing with constant peak current values and at 50 amps and really mostly probably doing 20 amps average..
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 02:40:11 AM by spellchecker »

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Offline Leslie

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Re: My Magic Pie went dead
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2012, 10:51:48 AM »
I would take a walk down to the auto mechanics if I was you and suss out what he's got.  Tell him you have PWM DC or AC and you want 20/30 amps through 4ft of at least 60v cable.

I just pulled a power tool extension cord apart and used the earth wire as it was the the thickest and heat shrinked my red, blue, yellow colors over the ends..

USA AC cable is rated at 120v at about 15 amps @ 10 meters. That's perfect.  <<< Corrected
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 02:35:56 AM by spellchecker »

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Offline Leslie

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Re: My Magic Pie went dead
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2012, 11:01:00 AM »
The AC cable worked fine for my HBS,  But the stuff I got from the auto electrician was much better.  Just means more efficient

 

No, using the 240v cable did not hurt my motor, my beautiful wife did doing this to the poor bike.

Would this be enough power for you?  The 240v wires worked fine.



Look close at what my wife rode home in the baby cariage, and in a trailer.  Id say about 50kgs of food potting mix and everything is in that.  All through extension cord wires.





And add 30 kg SLA.  This over 3 year back.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 02:34:28 AM by spellchecker »

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Offline Leslie

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Re: My Magic Pie went dead
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2012, 11:11:14 AM »
LOL.  If anything the smaller gauge was prolly padding the motor, maybe why she made it home that night.  I could fry an egg on the motor.  The wires were hardly warm away from the motor.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 02:33:42 AM by spellchecker »

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Offline Leslie

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Re: My Magic Pie went dead
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2012, 11:13:14 AM »


The damage to the motor.  :(  Before and after.

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Offline Leslie

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Re: My Magic Pie went dead
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2012, 11:18:19 AM »


GM hbs hub 20 amp wire above vs extention cord wire below.

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Offline Leslie

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Re: My Magic Pie went dead
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2012, 11:46:45 AM »
The extension cord I pulled apart was for power power tools and it was very long, so he wires were a bit thicker. It was already wrecked so it costed me nothing.

Others sources of good wire are decent power boards. Stoves,  and stuff that requires high amps you might have in the garage, broken or waiting to throw out.

The auto electrician has RC wire for campers and what not, it cheap and really good because you don't need too much.

As for getting the bearing over the wire. 

Install long wires that will lead all the way to your controller..  You don't want those short silly wires poking out and have an ugly fat connection at the axle to deal with.


I think I sat the ends of new long wires in the axle gap right up to where the axle gap ends. Then I pushed the bearing over the wires poking the wire ends with a screw driver under the bearing as I slid the bearing into place.  I damaged the ends or the wires only, I cut them off after I pull the full length of my new wires through all the way.  Some oil or detergent can aid the slippage.

I don't remember having to remove the bearing.  I think it slipped far along for me to get enough wire into the axle gap so when I slid the bearing back my wire end were accessible.

I only had to thin the HBS wires at the ends, as for the MP it worked by brute force to push them under the bearing with the screw drives aid and some slippy detergent to ease the wires all the way through..


Finish edit.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 02:32:55 AM by spellchecker »

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Offline Leslie

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Re: My Magic Pie went dead
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2012, 11:52:53 AM »
For my hall sensor wires I just found an old PC USB cord laying around that had the best wires inside and installed these.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 02:53:39 AM by spellchecker »

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