2 Beeps when hub moves but no power

[Leslie]

I read somewhere that these geared mini-motors can generate spikes in high speeds. I have a mini-motor with a CA on my winter cutie, I’ll test this as soon as I got a nut to my rear wheel. It looks impossible though to find a nut whit the Sram thread FG 10,5.

Peter

The forum thanks you and loves you.

Sorry again for my indiscretions, but it makes me mad when people like myself, you, Alan and the many others here grind their fingers to the bone when GM cant even answer Emails.

[GM Canada]

Im not sure regen is the culprit here either. As some of you know I have 2 pies on my bike and even with a rolling weight of over 400 pounds (yes 400 counting me the bike, 2 motors, 2 batteries my trailor and all my gear ) when I hit the brakes the most amps I have seen going back due to regen is about 8 amps. This is a reading I am getting by watching the Cycle Analyst while I brake. Of course the CA my not be able to read quick spikes but I should see one once in a while if it is happening. Does anyone else with a CA have anything to contribute on what amps you are seeing during regen?

Gary

[MonkeyMagic]

Wow Gaz, yes I would be suprised to know that too

I was wondering this myself running 2, can I ask you what you ended up setting your regen for both wheels for?

[GM Canada]

Wow Gaz, yes I would be suprised to know that too

I was wondering this myself running 2, can I ask you what you ended up setting your regen for both wheels for?

The 8 amps I saw going back in was when I had them both set at 100 percent. I have since changed the front to 40 percent and the rear at 80. I had to do this as I almost wiped out a few times when they were set so high. The highest amps I see going back at this setting is about 6 amps.

Gary

PS who is Gaz?

[Leslie]

The culprit I believe.

Is

1:  Poor connection to the battery.
2: Poor configuration of Regen and cont~max amp setting
3.  Poor solder points in the controller or BMS power train.

With only some milliamps to the fet gates Regen is variable to many amps I believe via the software settings.


Like, when you see these posts with "I cant get more than 15 amps from my MP" this, is the warning sign and keep your eyes out for them guys because it will be "My MP is broken" in the next day or so.

These people for the love of just being on the road for longer must set their software within the limits of the hardware and find the bottle neck along the power train if they want the full MP experience.

I have measured amps to / from the pie with a clamp on ac/dc tester.  It is 0-100A 1,5%
Results are a bit suprising
Forward:  Max amp 15A  (checked this by setting max continous to 16A.  No noticable change in performance!)
Regen  80% :  16A
Regen  60% :  10A
Regen  40%:   8A
Regen  20%:   zero , nothing

It an all GM setup;  Magic Pie rear, internal controller, 36V16Ah GM battery.
(I also have to add the Hioki clamp on does not have a min/max register;  Hard to get an accurate reading....Reading given with no decimal)

As you see here there are more amp coming back to the battery than going to the controller, this dictates that the motor voltage is higher than the battery volts.

At 42v 15 amps

42/15= 2.8 ohms.

2.8 ohms * 16 amps = 46v

If Jensenff were to set his Regen to 100% he may get 18 amps

So 18 amps * 2.8 ohms = 50.4v from the motor.

50.4v/42v=1.2 multiplier.


A 48v pack is 54.6v

54.6v * 1.2 = 65.5v  This is over the capacitor voltage rating but not over the fet rating.

I really can not nail the 48v pack without the same bike on a 48v12ah pack, as the resistance could be the same or even is a little higher on a 12ah pack its hard to do the math.


But in essence you can see how a bottle neck in the system and or incorrect software configuration can indeed lead to higher volts on the motor side.

Even a higher voltage capacitor would make the Magic controller much more reliable IMO.  Higher voltage caps do have a lower ESR meaning the resistance is lower, to voltage spikes this is better.

[Leslie]

Folks that buy the 16 cell lifepo4 pack need to be especially careful.  Be it GM brand LFP-4820 or any other brand, as the max charging voltage on such is a a few volts higher.

Why cant GM listen to me and the others I gathered this info from for once.

I think for a few more dollars in build quality ot wouldnt hurt anybody but results in controller that costs $5 more that could be charged to the customer upon purchase.  Nobody would lose.

The customers get better parts GM get a better reputation, and it would be a win win situation.

All I asked for was 100v fets and caps.  Not even close to what other have got at request.
 .

[Leslie]

I getting a 24 inch pie and hooking it up to a mighty little  24 inch MBT MX thing......  wow they look awesome.  



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SICK.

Can we get 100v fets please.  

Request denied!!!!

[MonkeyMagic]

Leslie mate I think you may be a bit confused, I'm sure Alan has always 'liked' you silly!

You have some good points about the battery etc, my thoughts is that maybe there is a switching problem with possibly the caps discharging back through the phase when the brake is released, enabling the throttle. I can remember clearly as stopping at the lights I let off the brake switch and the wheel started cogging and I thought at first I had a flat, then I heard the beeps...
Could that current or fast switch from whoah to go be the cause of the problem I don't know. What I do know is that I ride my bike everyday and since really miss 2 pies!! having 1 now is like having 1 leg

[Leslie]

Leslie mate I think you may be a bit confused, I'm sure Alan has always 'liked' you silly!

when the brake is released, enabling the throttle.

I think Regen works by reversing the gate driver function to the opposite switching.  So when normally the gate driver is open it is closed and vice-versa.  The percentage of regen is delivered by the duty cycle of PWM.

Maybe at this point of brake release, the resistance between the motor and shunt raises at a sharp peak due to internal capacitance of the fets draining off in a millisecond and the phase current cap should be full of regen energy offernig little resistance for any spikes to be absorbed.

After a few shots or more the phase cap has energy punch micro holes into the insulator between the plates and resistance between the phase cap positive and ground increases until the cap fuses, this in my mind results in 100% regen to ground before the battery yet regen on the next operation parse takes out the capacitor and intermitency makes this happen.



The full circuit above is like massive so I can only give a screeny of the part that matters.

There are a few things that come to mind but to trace it and simulate it is quite a challenge.

BTW that spike is reading 40v over the 52v battery voltage and no disconnection is happening to the charging 52v battery.  It was only on a few time I "'released" the short to the cap I get this spike too sometimes it was a drop of 40v.

You know what happens when cap fail they behave like they work and then present a short circuit.  When and how is anybodies guess.  They can even test like there is nothing wrong with them until you put them to work too.

To be honest im confused as all hell now as there isnt much going for the regen idea and a lot of thing happen that can make it fail.  Maybe not a single thing but a multitude of events causing failures,



The above sim is of a pulse similar to a regen pulse from the motor generated by a 555 timer 12v output to the gate of a fet, rail is 52v to a 1000uh inductor (motor) then to a fet drain, to sim pulses, and then the fet output is transimtted to a fet bridge config like our controller, with a short swtich over the cap onto a 52v battery.  The 2.8 ohm resistor offers some idea of the resistance in circuit to the batt.

Im not going to simulate this idea to 100% accuracy as I am not 100% sure of all the electro mechanics involved but I put to the pro engineers, who is?

If this was a proven technology and everything is known in a single thought of tracing and all inconsistancies were 100% understood then we would not be here discussing why the magic controllers are failing.

All I can offer up is that the higher volt parts must be more resistant to what we are seeing in this simulation.

[Leslie]

' you silly!

People have always said we both work well on different ends of the table, IMO covering each others weaknesses in support.

But thats the problem I feel, while I am chesse he is chalk.  I don't think we will ever be the same person nor replace one another.

But here is the $1000 question where do you fit in Monkey.   So much skill your posses.  Maybe youre where the opposites meet..

What got up my nose is I was made a tech official here with absolutley no up to date information on the newer products nor the funds to aquire them.  I felt like a fast runner with a missing leg waiting to be shown up for a fool at the starting line..

[Sundsvall]

What got up my nose is I was made a tech official here with absolutley no up to date information on the newer products nor the funds to aquire them.  I felt like a fast runner with a missing leg waiting to be shown up for a fool at the starting line..

I don’t understand why GM isn’t taking care of such a good support / advert / salesperson as Leslie.

If they could provide him with technical information and/or some of the products, they would have it back greatly.

This forum would be nothing without Leslie and Alan, even if there’re a few more sharp guys in here (or girls).

GM Please listen to this

Peter

[MonkeyMagic]

Hmm I guess I just fit in because I like this forum, and the fact that I'm the only person I know that has a ebike!

I think GM are even a bit too busy ATM to do anything... Maybe National Day holiday is big one as some of my contacts took this whole week off. I've noticed a fair lack of comms from china in the past week or so.

But still, understand where you are coming from Les. And what can ya do hey  frustrating

[Leslie]

Monkey.
Well a simple mod would be to replace two caps with 100v parts at least with the external controller.  Im sure this would be hard to mess up.  Im sure I could manage to fail at it.

Frustration?

Funny thing is Im not as good with my hands as I am with my mind.   Pins and needles in my fingers from child hood, loss of eye sight to age sometimes makes life difficult for me.  I have an exceptional memory like an elephant the organization skills of a derelict homeless and cant find my glasses half the time., computer skills and understanding how to learn is not an issue for me, This is why theory, science, physics is so attractive to me.

Peter thanks for the compliment.

I don't know, I think if someone offered me free products I would refuse, weird I know.  I always like being free, and getting things free always seems like a ball and chain, I could take them but I would be trying to offer 10 times in return,  You got that much right. But I would suffer much in real life.

I always have problems in employment, as I work myself into the ground.  I can never pace myself in duty in any correct manner and always end up at odds with someone.  I always believe that the workers time is such value that money can not buy, loyalty and respect from the employer is worth more.

However this is not how the real world works.  I don't get hierarchy culture in the work place and think it just an excuse for classicism.

Sadly it may be too late for me here as usually when this time comes and Im talking like this I cant change course, I am hoping this time, in this forum I can learn how to settle down.  This is something I am trying to learn, however when the thorn is in my side.  EG I see the no email response threads, it is bugging me and making it hard for me.  I will go the boss like a pit bull until I'm put out of commission.

No no!

GM are reading all of this and I am positive as I was asked to edit my posts via PM, I am wondering why they keep this forum going but I know if this forum goes so will the GM business.  

As this is the customer support and the good peoples assistance here are sustaining the product sale not the flashy crappy web stuff and expo's.

Wana prove me wrong about this one too GM? try it.

Ping interacts on ES.

Keywin interacts on ES

Justin from Renaissance interacts on ES.

John from CA interacts.

Most of what I post here is in some form is collated and learned from the techs from ES.

GM opposes ES and sees them as an enemy or understudy.  

Here is a thought!  Swallow the pride.  GM get on ES and find out from a larger community as to what to do with the controller and DO IT.

Hey why doesnt GM just make a few cheap and easy changes to some things and be done with worrying about all the warranty emails.

[Leslie]

The irony is that in simple terms for those who have right brain thought domination  the voltage must be higher from the motor than the battery for any current to charge the battery.  The caps rated at 63v and controller limited to 60v and the battery GM battery charges to 56.4v and leaves 3.6v head room to stay within GM magic controller specs @ 60v and 6.6v to stay within the capacitors specs.  Thats a Brazilian with Lazar technology close to make anything viable.

Exactly how much volts has to get up from the motor to deliver 15 amps 20 amps 25 amps to the battery?  Exactly how does this EMF sensor works or could work is beyond me.  From my perspective such a thing as cutting regen with 25 amps soaking the circuit would more than likely create more problems than good.  As amps shows there is resistance on the motor.


Can anyone yet report regen cut off before fet damage?  And if its not regen thats taking fets out then what could it be?

[Leslie]

In detail - Internal controller -
 I have always needed to pedal start from day one - I have not connected cruise, brakes or pedelec.
I have charged the battery but it usually switches off after a couple of hours - should I leave it connected so it can switch on again or is that the end
of the cycle?
AT present I have 3 full lights on throttle and 2 beeps if I move the hub slightly. Tried pedalling up the road but no power.
I have changed settings in controller ( I think) Not entirely sure whether it is changing anything but it does beep when I push connect.
Do you know of any instructions for the USB controller software or an explanation of how you know it is doing what it says ?
I have just ordered a front hub so I can duel it so I am committed to getting this working.
Thanks for your advice
Rob

If I lived in the UK I would offer help.  Even if it was practical I would buy the defective wheel from you for an honest price as the controllers aint worth much new IMO.