2 Beeps when hub moves but no power

[Rob9771]

HI
I just set up a MPie 1000w 48v on a rear hub. Straight out the box 40kmh on flat - plenty of torque.
Covered about 30 miles and decided to try it on some rough tracks. No problem for about 3k then motor cuts out.
I still have all lights on trigger throttle and loads of battery. Switched off and back on and no sounds.
Rode home and put hub on USB to try and find out what was wrong. Plugged in again and get no sound , As soon as hub moves I get 2 beeps but no power.
Any help greatly appreciated - I was having great fun until then !!

I have no pedelec, no brakes and no cruise set up.

Thanks

[Bikemad]

Hi Rob andto the forum.

Two beeps is usually an indication of hall sensor failure, but the motor should still run in sensorless mode with this particular fault.
You haven't mentioned whether you have the internal or external controller, so I'll try and cover both options.

If you have the external controller, double check the connections on the five thin wires going to the motor, as a poor connection here may cause this fault.

If you have the internal controller, it's worth double checking the connections to the motor to ensure they are properly plugged in, but I think the fault is more likely to be a failed hall sensor.

If the motor was bought from a dealer, you will need to contact them direct, but if it was purchased direct from GM in China, email tom@goldenmotor.com and explain that your Magic Pie gives two beeps , but no power at all.
Try and keep the email short and to the point to avoid any confusion with the translation.

Please let us know what the outcome is.

Alan
 

[MonkeyMagic]

Hey Rob

Did your pie get soggy at all (wet)?
I rode mine about 20 or so km's in the rain, some water must have hit a hall sensor so I disabled them with the USB software (changed the phase) it eventually must have dried out and is working awesome now.

Have you tried riding the bike for a bit then trying the throttle? It should go into sensorless mode, I was riding on that for a while until I tried the hall sensors again

good luck!@!

[Rob9771]

Tried riding again but no change. Latest development is that if I leave it switched on the throttle lights go out, then turn off and on again
and it tries to move about an inch before dying again. Can I buy hall sensors in the UK as I get the impression GM are not really quick
to respond to problems (not my experience yet but from what I read on here)
Rob

[Leslie]

There are a few places that do Hall sensors.  The HoneyWell SS41 is the better part as it has good temp, voltage and current ratings.

Ebikes.ca have a lesser version that seems to work just fine with their controllers.


You still should be able to get going in sensorless mode.  The LED lights out could be a sign of the BMS cutting and or a bad battery connection.  Still not related to hall failure.


As the BMS and controller are not integrated to know what each other are doing, A failed hall sensor could have the motor phase work against each other and trip the BMS before auto sensorless mode can work. Maybe reduce you max and continuous amp setting in the software to maybe avoid this problem of BMS cutting you off..


What about charging? You mention numerous things about range but don't mention you actually charge the pack,  

You may need to charge the pack right up and make sure it is fully balanced. Even a 5 hour charge may have your pack reading enough voltage to get you going but if the cell blocks are all out of balance the BMS still may complain and cut you off.


A new pack could take three days to properly balance and you are set.  Still leave the pack as much as you can on the charger when you use the bike often.

Try leave the pack on the charge for a couple of days and get the pack balanced perfectly then see if it cuts out on any load. Reduce the max and continuous amps to 20 amps max and 15 amps cont to see if you can get sensorless mode running.  And as Alan has already said check all your connections for and intermittency especially on you battery and throttle connections.

Is your controller internal or external?

[Leslie]

Ohhh and BTW sensorless mode may require you to pedal first and get the bike moving for it to work.

[Rob9771]

In detail - Internal controller -
 I have always needed to pedal start from day one - I have not connected cruise, brakes or pedelec.
I have charged the battery but it usually switches off after a couple of hours - should I leave it connected so it can switch on again or is that the end
of the cycle?
AT present I have 3 full lights on throttle and 2 beeps if I move the hub slightly. Tried pedalling up the road but no power.
I have changed settings in controller ( I think) Not entirely sure whether it is changing anything but it does beep when I push connect.
Do you know of any instructions for the USB controller software or an explanation of how you know it is doing what it says ?
I have just ordered a front hub so I can duel it so I am committed to getting this working.
Thanks for your advice
Rob

[Leslie]

Sensorless mode may indeed trigger the cut outs if the hub gets jammed up with no pedals to start, but this I am not entirely sure of.  I would advise keeping the current down to the motor until you get this sorted.  Any overload will make the BMS kick off the controller.  This will be indicated to loss of throttle lights.

Some of the solder points maybe poor inside this controller and this could create a low drop on fet side of the shunt.  Again we are not sure as the controller is over complicated IMO with all theses weird beeps that really seem to mean nothing if the controller hasnt been soldered properly to begin with.

Is there some beeps that indicate crappy controller soldering?  Otherwise the beeps are presumptuous to the fact that there is a normal malfunction such as hall sensor failure.  I would rather a controller that doesnt fail over a controller that always fails and has beeps to tell you something as obvious as hall failure or fet failure as usually the solution to all and any other problems is to check your connections or get a new controller.  So why do we need beeps to tell us the same stuff.



100v fets and 100v caps for the regen controller would be a start, IMHO the regen voltage between the motor and the shunt can exceed the capacitor rating making it fuse.  On a full charged pack there is only about 7v difference between a full pack and the 63v cap.  This is designed to fail IMO.  THAT(S WHY THEY ARE FAILING! 



My suggestions are always ignored so we still see much more failures.

You may need to get an external controller with a reputable track record.  Yes something with at least 100v caps.

I get the feeling the hub isnt giving you anymore power.  Maybe something inside the hub has shaken lose or a poor solder point has failed during your off road use.

If GM doesnt make good on support youre are going to have to deal with this problem yourself.

Meaning open your hub, remove, the internal controller, run hall wires and phase wires out side to an external controller, with the right gear the motor should be a pearl,

[Leslie]

If the controller shunt is limited to 20 amps or even 25 amps and regen outputs 30 amps or 35 amps at any stage.  There is 5~15 amps remaining between the motor and fets with no place to go, so the voltage will increase between the motor and shunt due to the inductive behavior of the motor.  Your guess is as good as mine how many volts over your packs voltage this could equate to, so REGEN spikes are a good enough reason to suspect why we are seeing the failures.

Edit.

Its good practice to limit your max amps to the maximum your motor can pull other wise the controllers regen can allow more energy from motor before the shunt than will go back to the pack.

I have two hubs in route to my home.  Pre tested by GM CA, Gary reports that one hub delivers no more than 20 amps despite the settings in the software where as the other hub can give 25 amps.

The problem hub will be the 20 amp hub.  Other than pull the 20 amp hub apart and look for the bottle neck, it is best I limit the max amps on the 20 amps and set regen to not give more amps than 20 amps or else the voltage can and will spike above the pack...

 

[Bikemad]

so REGEN spikes are a good enough reason to suspect why we are seeing the failures.

But can you explain why controllers also fail on minimotors that don't generate any voltage whatsoever?

Alan
 

[Leslie]

Do they.  Where?

I thought most folk burn the mini motors over excessive voltage.

[Bikemad]

Hi everybody, and thanks for your nice info!
 
Seems to me Gm has a quality problem with the controler: Same problem after 1 month of normal use: 5 beeps, wheel hard to move.

The day it stopped the controller was quite warm -not hot. Temperature problem? I was driving flat and very slow.
Does anyone know
1. Other controller in the market fitting their motor? I read somewhere Gm one is a copy from Crystalite
2. A guide to replace the damaged part (if its a known one, mosfet or so)

I'm runnig minimotor kit, 250watt, 36v, 10Ah. Good results till now! 

Thanks everybody

Hello guys,

Just like it happened to you, I had the same problem: 5 beeps, wheel hard to move.

I've used an ancient controller and the motor is fine. The problem really comes from the controller.

GM STAFF: Can you guive us a guide to replace the damaged part? I'm sure you already know the problem. I see that it's very usual.

My setup:

250W Mini motor
Magic controller (broken)
2*5S LiPoly batteries (37V)

Thanks for an answer,
Luís

Both of these are minimotors!

Alan
 

[Leslie]

2 posts. 

Just because a fet fails doesnt mean its got to be REGEN.

Now can you tell me where the regen energy goes if there is a bottle neck in the controller?

What happen if some one sets their controller to 50 amps max, BTW is that 50 amps default, and regen to 100% and there is a 20 amps shunt in the way.

Just an exaggerated scenario but why has the regen controllers with reputable track record all using 100v fets and caps..   Why everyone with a brain on ES who develop this tech recommend desoldering 12 75v and 63v caps and replace them with 100v parts.

Maybe they at ES don't know what they are talking of and thesze two threads are more evidence of the 75v and 63v parts reliability.

Even a diode over a relay coils is recommended to short the spikes from inductive voltage spikes!

[Leslie]

BTW can someone inform me,

What happens to the mini motor stator bell fly magnet ring when regen braking is engaged for motor cut out.  Does its high RPM disappear into magic thin air?

What is the rpm of the inside of minimotor and does it stop suddenly when the brake switch is applied?  

I think just because the rider doesn't experience the back torque of the regen doesnt mean that there is no current coming back from the motor.


Being a geared motor I suspect the mini motor has high RPM and the sudden stop could cause a spike.  But not knowing anything about the physics, a non owner of this product, I can only guess the RPM going down hill could be surprisingly higher than any other direct drive motor and the inertia could add up to a short but high current spike meaning this could add up to volts.

[Sundsvall]

I read somewhere that these geared mini-motors can generate spikes in high speeds. I have a mini-motor with a CA on my winter cutie, I’ll test this as soon as I got a nut to my rear wheel. It looks impossible though to find a nut whit the Sram thread FG 10,5.

Peter