3kw Non-hub Moped Conversion help

[Bikemad]

The brake switch wiring is fine, it is not reliant upon polarity as it simply closes the circuit via the switch.

I suspect that the 15 blinks would indicate a short circuit fault on the brake wires, but only if it occurred when the brakes were released.

If your throttle has been wired as per the previous (with contactor) diagram, the throttle switch should operate the contactor.
The e-lock feed appears to be fed directly from the battery + connection on the contactor, but I don't know whether this is intentional or whether the diagram has been drawn incorrectly.
I would have thought that the e-lock would also be switched via the throttle switch like this:



As the five blinks related to the Hall sensors, have you actually checked the output of the Hall sensors as previously suggested by Motolittle and Tomycat?
All three sensor signals should switch between ~0 and ~5V four times for every complete shaft revolution.

Alan
 

[Knightgreider]

Oh yeah I forgot I was doing that then my battery died in the voltmeter! Duh! I got a new one and now I measured all the values by pushing the black lead into the black wire and the following values are below.

White:  .18v
Yellow:  2.9v
Blue: 2.9v
Green: 2.9v
Red:  1.4v

So everything is below 5v in the hall sensors I suppose then they aren't destroyed? It's strange that the white and red wires aren't 2.9v like the rest of them. Any ideas on why some of them are lower or how to fix them?

That makes sense about the e-lock turning the contactor on. I just hooked up the elock cable to the main "b+" on the controller. So I assume as soon as I plug the battery in, it's on?

Thanks Bikemad.

[Bikemad]

I presume that the 2.9V reading on the Yellow, Green and Blue Hall sensor wires is constant, and does not vary as they are supposed to when the motor shaft is rotated.

Unfortunately, the Red wire (+5V supply) is only reading 1.4V instead of the required ~5V, and this would definitely explain why the motor doesn't run.
 
I would say that either the +5V supply from the controller is being overloaded, or the 5V regulator inside the controller is no longer functioning correctly, and without the +5V supply, the Hall sensors cannot operate.

I suggest that you unplug the throttle and the Hall sensors and measure the voltage between the Red and Black wires on the controller's Hall sensor connector. If the Red wire still reads ~1.4V with the throttle and Hall sensors disconnected, it would indicate that the 5V regulator inside the controller has failed. 

However, if you find that you have a reading of ~5V with the throttle and Hall sensors unplugged, try plugging the throttle back in to see if the reading across the Red and Black wires drops to 1.4V again. If it does, it may be a fault within the throttle unit that is overloading the +5V supply from the controller.



If the voltage doesn't drop when you plug the throttle in, try plugging the Hall sensors back in again to see if the original fault is still present (only 1.4V instead of ~5V).

If it reverts back to 1.4V, it will either be a weak 5V regulator inside the controller or possibly a faulty Hall sensor (or partial short circuit within the Hall sensor wiring) that is overloading the controller's 5V regulated output.

Without measuring the current (mA) flowing through the Red wire, it is difficult to pinpoint exactly where the problem lies.

The 0.18V on the White lead is probably normal, and this will vary in relation to the resistance/temperature of the thermal sensor inside the motor.

I played with the negative hall angle a lot. The only one that gave me no blinks was the 60iã instead of the default 120iã.

According to other posts on this forum, the Hall Electrical Angle should be 120, the Phase Angle Offset should be -120, and the Number of Pole Pairs should be 4.

I suggest you put these to where they should be in case it was just a throttle fault, or if your controller needs to be returned for further testing.   

Alan
 

[Motolittle]

Yes the e lock button on the throttle enables the whole system. I will check my main parameters and see what I can give you to compare

[Knightgreider]

I changed the pole pairs to 4 and the angle to 120iã which gave me the 5 LED Blinks. So I still have the hall issue. So then I checked what Bikemad said. I disconnected the Hall sensor cable and the throttle and the red cable was outputting 5.3v which was a good sign. Then I plugged the throttle back in and the red cable was only outputting 1.66v. So that means that it's the throttle that is shorting the controller right? Should I buy a new throttle? Or how would I fix the one I have

If I get a new throttle, I would probably get it through the Goldenmotor Canada. Will it have different plugs? https://www.goldenmotor.ca/products/48V-Twist-Throttle-for-External-Controllers.html Is this the one I should get? I know I've seen posts on here for others that used this throttle grip that is 48v.

Thanks everyone.

[Motolittle]

I also had irregular and lower than 5v measurements for my hall sensors too but everything worked after finding correct sensor / phase wire combo. Best of luck!

[Motolittle]

My parameters:
 Hall angle  120
Phase angle 120
Number of pole pairs 4
Rated rpm 7000


Other important:

Starting phase current : 10
Max phase current : 120
Max rated phase current 120
Battery main amps 80
Throttle mode : soft start
Acceleration 120 rpm



These are what I like after testing but worked for my application: electric Yamaha 350 dual sport mod

[Bikemad]

I disconnected the Hall sensor cable and the throttle and the red cable was outputting 5.3v which was a good sign. Then I plugged the throttle back in and the red cable was only outputting 1.66v. So that means that it's the throttle that is shorting the controller right?

If the voltage drop is due to a faulty throttle (and not a weak 5V regulator output) then a replacement throttle should hopefully cure the problem. But if the throttle is not faulty, the fault will be within the controller.

I suggest that you unplug the throttle and plug the Hall sensors back in again and re-check the voltage across the Black and Red wires again.
If the voltage drops below 3.5V with just the Hall sensors connected, then it is more likely to be a controller fault than a fault within the throttle and one (or more) of the motor Hall sensors.

If the +5V supply does not drop below 3.5V with just the Hall sensors connected, then it is most likely to be a fault within the throttle unit or its wiring.

I don't know whether the connections on the linked throttle will be the same as your original throttle. Perhaps Gary (GM Canada) can provide more details.

The 24V, 36V and 48V voltage rating of the throttles only relates to the LED battery gauge, which you should really be disconnected if you are using a 72V battery.



It should be possible to repair your existing throttle by replacing the internal Hall sensor (Honeywell SS49E or equivalent):



Unfortunately, the twist throttles can sometimes be difficult to dismantle to gain access to the Hall sensor and LED Battery Gauge circuit board.

Alan
 

[Knightgreider]

Well I have good news and bad news.

I followed Motolittle's software stats and still am getting the hall sensor problems. So that sucks. But, I did follow Bikemad's recommendation, and I unplugged the throttle and plugged the hall sensors in and found that the red wire was giving me 4.94v! So that means that the controller isn't screwed up! But that does mean that the throttle is dropping the power below the threshold for the controller. So now I am currently trying to disassemble the throttle body and it's pretty tough. I am trying to follow Gary (GM Canada)'s guide. I am currently trying to get a paint can opener and bend it to release the plastic latches to remove the hall sensor cable and the 72v cable that could be drawing the extra power from the controller as stated from Bikemad's post.

I just ordered the Honeywell SS49E sensor. I am assuming when I get this throttle apart I will find where the original hall sensor is and just replace the leads?

Thanks again everyone. This forum is amazing!

[Tommycat]

 Great news on the voltage come back!    Bending a paint can opener...lol!   You gots to be looking at this https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/kits/golden-motor-magic-pie/56907-need-access-to-wiring-of-luna-full-twist-throttle

If you don't see bad wiring or connections and your are sure the sensor is to blame, the hall sensor hook-ups are as follows...



For a complete look at the Hall Sensor Throttle... check out my thread HERE...

Like Alan says, be sure to disconnect the throttle's LED assembly from your 72 volt power...    Hey, and while your in there, double check the amperage rating of the switch. And make sure you stay below it... (thinking of that contactor coil power draw)

[Bikemad]

I unplugged the throttle and plugged the hall sensors in and found that the red wire was giving me 4.94v! So that means that the controller isn't screwed up! But that does mean that the throttle is dropping the power below the threshold for the controller. So now I am currently trying to disassemble the throttle body and it's pretty tough. I am trying to follow Gary (GM Canada)'s guide. I am currently trying to get a paint can opener and bend it to release the plastic latches to remove the hall sensor cable and the 72v cable that could be drawing the extra power from the controller as stated from Bikemad's post.

I just ordered the Honeywell SS49E sensor. I am assuming when I get this throttle apart I will find where the original hall sensor is and just replace the leads?

With the faulty throttle unplugged, you should now be able to check the operation of the motor Hall Sensors, as the voltages on the Yellow, Green and Blue wires should now alternate between ~0v and ~5V as the motor is rotated by hand instead of all staying at a steady 2.9V.

As the +5V supply is working correctly with the throttle unplugged, it would appear that the throttle Hall sensor (or its wiring) is partially shorted to ground and placing an excessively high load on the +5V supply, which is why the voltage drops so low with the throttle plugged in.

The battery supply to the throttle's LED battery gauge is not always fed from the battery supply lead on the throttle switch as shown on the previous diagram. Some of the throttles for the external controllers have a separate wire which is solely dedicated to supplying the Battery Gauge with battery voltage. If your throttle has this separate wire (it is Green on my throttle) then you only need to leave it disconnected at the connector end of the throttle cable instead of disconnecting the wire inside the throttle unit. 

The wires on an old type external controller twist throttle that I have are as follows:



2 pin connector
Brown and Yellow wires to throttle switch

3 pin connector
Red:  +5V feed to throttle Hall sensor
Black:  Common Ground connection for Throttle Hall Sensor and LED Battery Gauge
White: Throttle signal output voltage (This usually varies between 0.8~1V with the throttle released and >3.25V at full throttle)

Separate Green wire
Battery Voltage supply for LED Battery Gauge (do not connect this if using a 48V throttle with a 72V battery)

Although the LED Battery Gauge shares a common ground connection with the Throttle Hall Sensor, it should not have any noticeable effect on the +5V supply even if it was connected directly to a 72V battery, as the higher voltage would only affect the operation of the Battery Gauge itself.

When you receive the new Hall sensor, you will need to cut off the heat shrink insulation and unsolder the wires from the old sensor and resolder them to the new one, making sure you don't mix them up in the process. The legs of the new sensor and the soldered connections must then be carefully insulated to ensure the soldered joints (or adjacent legs) cannot touch against one another. Heat shrink tubing is the best option, but insulation tape can be used instead if you don't have any suitable heat shrink tubing

Alan
 

[Bikemad]

Like Alan says, be sure to disconnect the throttle's LED assembly from your 72 volt power...    Hey, and while your in there, double check the amperage rating of the switch. And make sure you stay below it... (thinking of that contactor coil power draw)

I think that the switches are rated for 1A @ 250VAC (250 Watts) and the contactor coils usually consume 8-12 Watts of power, which should be less than 0.2A @ 72V, so the switch contacts should be fine.

Alan
 

[Knightgreider]

Hey there everyone.

I put the new hall sensor in and hooked it back up to the controller. Then I tested the hall sensor cables, the Red and Black were still 4.94v while the throttle is plugged in. But I then kept getting the 5 blinking LED lights on the controller. I went to put the throttle back together and then broke the newly soldered hall sensor... It is extremely fragile as a realized. I bought 2 hall sensors, so I will try again tomorrow.

So when the throttle was not fully assembled yet but the hall sensor was installed, I still got the lights. Does it matter? Should I reinstall the new sensor and try to get it to work. I think I might just buy a new throttle...

[Tommycat]

The 4.94vdc on the motor hall sensor supply with the throttle connected is a good sign!      But your next move is to re-test your 3 motor hall sensors to see if they are functioning properly as the 5 blinking lights do matter.... You don't need the throttle to check them. Since you have an extra hall sensor for your throttle it wouldn't hurt to try and replace it, the soldering practice on a hall sensor may come in handy.   

[Knightgreider]

Hey there everyone. Pretty frustrated. I tested the hall sensor wires without the throttle plugged in and got these values when I moved the motor.
Blue - 2.86vDC
Yellow - 2.86vDC
Green - 2.86vDC
Red - 4.95vDC

I soldered the hall sensor back into the throttle and tried to reassemble the throttle again. Some good news is that it appears that my throttle is not making the voltage go down anymore in the red hall sensor wire was 4.95vDC after I plugged in the throttle to the controller and hooked up the batteries. I don't think I reassembled the throttle back together correctly as there are no clear instructions as to how the spring goes back in the throttle assembly. I will have to take it apart again and re-do it. I also just ordered another throttle from Goldenmotor Canada, I hope it will be the same connector. I got some of these before for my brake wires: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B016NV1PVW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Only my throttle is a 3 point connector currently. So we will hope that the new throttle has the same type.

Does anyone know if I would have to take the new throttle apart again to remove the LED power display so that it doesn't short the hall sensor again?

All that aside I still get 5 Blinking lights when I plug in the throttle... hence why I am frustrated. I guess I have to keep playing with the software till it doesn't blink when the throttle is connected?

Ugh.