Author Topic: LiPo battery packs  (Read 45298 times)

Offline Bikemad

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Re: LiPo battery packs
« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2011, 11:40:19 AM »
you can adjust cell monitors voltage alarm range can't you?

I can't remember offhand what parameters are adjustable, but you can check out the PDF manual attached to this post for full details.

Alan
 

Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: LiPo battery packs
« Reply #46 on: May 30, 2011, 11:45:23 AM »
Cheers Alan!  :)

Offline Bikemad

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Re: LiPo battery packs
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2011, 01:13:53 AM »
if so, you can just make the cells in different packs be in parallel by connection its balance wires... But way do you disconnect them while discharge? Why not to leave them connected forever?

If the packs are identical and are going to be charged and discharged in parallel, there is no reason why the balance leads should need to be disconnected.

I mainly use a 25.9V 7S2P 10Ah pack made up of 2 x 3S 5Ah and 2 x 4S 5Ah, and this pack is permanently connected on both the power leads and the balance leads, apart from when I have to disconnect the balance leads to reconfigure it to a 51.8V 14S1P pack.
Failure to disconnect the balance leads usually causes big sparks and melted connectors when you attempt to connect the power leads in series while the balance leads are still paralleled! ;)

I made up a simple balance board connector unit using Veroboard that allows me to connect the balance leads of up to 8 LiPo packs (4 x 3S and 4 x 4S) for simultaneous balanced charging. This board has a separate balance lead (made from balance lead extentions), which is needed for balanced charging and monitoring the cells, without having to disturb any of the balance leads from the individual packs.

Here are some photos of my setup showing how it all goes together:



The completed balance board:



Fitted and connected to four battery packs (with connectors for four more packs):



Power cable "Y" adapter to connect both 7S packs together in parallel:



Here's the complete pack ready to use, but without any physical protection:



Home made gender changers are required to allow the watt meter to be reversed for monitoring the pack's charging capacity instead of just its discharge capacity.



Watt meter is fitted in normal direction to measure consumed current etc.
The Simple battery monitor device plugged into the balance lead at the top of the picture beeps very loudly if the pack voltage falls too low during use.
I unplug this when the battery is not being used to prevent it from slowly discharging the pack while it sits unused.



This adapter/extension lead converts 1 x 3S and 1 x 4S to 1 x7S plug to suit the charger:



My charging setup, shown without the usb lead that I use for monitoring on the PC using LogView.



The pack is tucked inside a Jiffy bag, which is taped inside a cardboard box before being placed into the foam padded pannier for added shock absorption, and it seems to be protected well enough to cope with all the punishment I've subjected it to so far!





And this is the ideal result for a properly balanced 7S LiPo pack pack after a full charge:



I must apologise to anyone who is trying to read this post using a dial up connection instead of broadband.

Alan
 
« Last Edit: March 27, 2021, 05:25:23 PM by Bikemad »

Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: LiPo battery packs
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2011, 08:55:57 AM »
Nice set up Alan!

I think if you wanted to monitor each cell, then you would need to disconnect from parallel because 1 cell could go bad and you wouldn't know it?


Offline Bikemad

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Re: LiPo battery packs
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2011, 06:00:26 PM »
I think if you wanted to monitor each cell, then you would need to disconnect from parallel because 1 cell could go bad and you wouldn't know it?

When one cell fails (or starts to fail), it usually affects the cell/s paralleled to it, and this should show up as a noticeably lower reading on one group of cells.
If this happened, it would be easy to separate the packs to locate the faulty cell.
As long as my cell readings continue to be within ±0.01V of each other when the discharged pack is first put on charge, I'm pretty confident that the cells are all good. ;)

Alan
 

Offline DirtyGinge

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Re: LiPo battery packs
« Reply #50 on: May 31, 2011, 06:28:41 PM »
Hi Chaps

Great thread.....informative :)......

Whats the average weight on 20ah worth of 48V lipo ?
Infineon lyen edition 12 Fet
Goldenmotor Magic pie rear ....2000 Watt peak
oh yea.....Im too fat :)...but cute, oh yea, im cute

Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: LiPo battery packs
« Reply #51 on: May 31, 2011, 07:41:43 PM »
Hi Chaps

Great thread.....informative :)......

Whats the average weight on 20ah worth of 48V lipo ?

6.2 KG for 8x 5ah 6S Zippy 30C for 44 volts 20ah,

A ping 48V 20 ah would weigh 9.9 kgs!

Or 6 x 6S 8AH Zippy would give you 44 Volts and 24 ah, and weigh only 7.5 kg!


For some reason the zippy LiPo seems to be lighter than the turnigy?


Did I mention LiPo?
« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 09:17:07 PM by Bikemad »

Offline Bikemad

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Re: LiPo battery packs
« Reply #52 on: May 31, 2011, 08:43:01 PM »
What's the average weight on 20ah worth of 48V lipo ?

My 7S2P 10Ah 25.9V (14S1P 5Ah 51.8V) weighs 1.92kg, so a 14S4P 20Ah would weigh 7.68kg

As you're using an Infineon controller you could go for 16S4P 59.2V (67.2V fully charged) using 16 of these:


Click pic for more details

Sixteen packs @ 536g each = 8.576kg  (cost = $479.84 + delivery)

Or you could have a 12S4P 44.4V (50.4V fully charged) using 8 of these:


Click pic for more details

Eight packs @ 793g each = 6.344kg  (cost = $353.60 + delivery)

For some reason the zippy LiPo seems to be lighter than the turnigy?

That's how they justify the extra cost by paying more for less.
I wonder if it's enough weight saving to reduce the postage cost?

Alan
 
« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 08:46:00 PM by Bikemad »

Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: LiPo battery packs
« Reply #53 on: May 31, 2011, 09:12:37 PM »


That's how they justify the extra cost by paying more for less.
I wonder if it's enough weight saving to reduce the postage cost?

Alan
 

I doubt it, it still weighs  enough and cost me 97 Dollars, for 4x 8AH 6S

Offline Bikemad

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Re: LiPo battery packs
« Reply #54 on: May 31, 2011, 09:52:46 PM »

As we've wandered miles off topic, I have separated this portion of the original thread and moved it to the General Discussions section.

Alan
 

Offline Bikemad

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Re: LiPo Vs LiFePO4
« Reply #55 on: May 31, 2011, 11:38:49 PM »

LiPo is definitely the best in the business for E-Bikes as they pack some energy and can discharge very high C from a very small pack, LiFeP04 can't begin to touch it!

I decided to do a comparison between two similar capacity packs to see what the differences actually are:

       Zippy 4S1P 8000mAh LiPo pack              Zippy 4S2P 8400mAh LiFePO4 pack
 
                                      Click either picture for more details.


Here are the specifications:
Capacity:        8000mAh                          8400mAh
Voltage:         4S1P 4 Cell 14.8v                4S2P 8 cell 13.2V
Discharge:       30C Constant 40C Burst           30C Constant 40C Burst
Charge Rate:     40Amps (5C)                      16.8Amps (2C)
Weight:          845g                             1026g
Dimensions:      166mm x 69mm x 35mm              150mm x 52mm x 70mm
Balance Plug:    JST-XH                           JST-XH
Discharge plug:  5.5mm Bullet-connector           5.5mm Bullet-connector
Volume:          400.89cc                         546cc
Stored Energy:   118.4Wh                          110.88Wh   
Specific Energy: 140.12Wh/kg                      108.07Wh/kg
Energy Density:  295.34Wh/litre                   203.08Wh/litre
Price:           $58.8                            $119.78
Cost per Wh:     $0.50                            $1.08


Looking at those figures we can see that the LiFePO4 pack can actually deliver 5% more current than the LiPo, but only because its capacity is 5% greater! ;)

The LiFePO4 pack is heavier, larger, more expensive, holds less energy, has a much lower charge rate and its voltage is also 10.81% lower than the LiPo.
Unfortunately HobbyKing do not mention the expected number of cycles, so it's difficult to compare the expected lifespan of these packs, but I would expect the LiFePO4 to have the longest lifespan.

One thing that did surprise me was the discount offer that popped up on screen for both products, because I had both windows open for quite a while as I was gathering information:

Quote
One time only offer!

Hello shopper!
We noticed you've been looking at this product for a while and we would like to offer you a discount. If you click on the add to cart button below we can offer you this product for $55.63.
This offer will only show once.
If you leave this page or close this window you will not see this offer again.
$55.63   
   
Quote
One time only offer!

Hello shopper!
We noticed you've been looking at this product for a while and we would like to offer you a discount. If you click on the add to cart button below we can offer you this product for $100.86.
This offer will only show once.
If you leave this page or close this window you will not see this offer again.
$100.86


The next time you buy anything from HobbyKing, open a separate window for each item and wait and see if they offer you discount. ;D

I hope you find this comparison as interesting as I did.

Alan
 
 

Offline o00scorpion00o

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Re: LiPo battery packs
« Reply #56 on: June 01, 2011, 08:47:36 AM »
Yes I waited because the guys at E.S said that the discount window pops up after a while!  ;)

You still can't compare LiFeP04 to 90C Lipo!

Then there is the extra weight!

And if charging to 4.1 and not 4.2 volts can considerably increase cycle life, or so I'm told anyway, but I trust the R.C guys as they have use LiPo for a long time!

Offline Cornelius

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Re: LiPo battery packs
« Reply #57 on: June 01, 2011, 02:22:53 PM »
Listen guys and girls... ;)

I think it's time for a cleanup of acronyms and expressions here... ;D

First, you all use 'BMS' for electronics that manages the battery in any way... There are at least 3 different battery management systems:

PCB/PCM - Protection Circuit Board/Module
These are the basic boards, preventing overcharge and overdischarge; some also have balancing function and max.discharge current protection. Price from $10 and up...
This is what GM batteries use!!!

CMB - Charge Management Board
These are a bit more advanced than a PCB/PCM, often with balancing function, fuel gauge and charge-while-discharge capabilities in addition to basic PCB/PCM functions. Price range from $40 and up.

BMS - Battery Management System
This is the most advanced system which monitors and controls everything, and then some; also the most expensive - usually $400-$500 and up...

And second... :)
You say LiPo... What chemistry?!?!
Are we talking about LiCoO2 specific, or any Li-Ion cells with Polymer casing?

There's a jungle of different chemistrys out there; all with advantages and disadvantages, so it's important to be precise when discussing and recommending cells... :)