500W FWD Goldenmotor (regen) - Hybrid Commuter (problems)

[nitecheck]

Hi - I finally have the bike up & running. It actually looks great & handles very well...but the motor is difficult to turn -it takes an effort to turn the wheel by hand (not at all like my little 250w 9Continent (9C) hub - which has some resistance but may be overcome without too much effort.
When riding with the GM - if I do not use the throttle - it is very hard to pedal, even on the flat - there is just so much resistance.
(as soon as I provide a little power to the motor bike - it pedals fine). Additionally the motor is quite noisy (at about 85%-100% throttle there is a scrapping /rasping sound which is quite loud (the hub clearly announces it's self). This noise is intermittent & goes away depending on throttle use, terrain like flats, down hill etc. I'm so used to my 9C being very quiet ...unless pushed to the max up/down hill - where it emits a low electronic whir like sound. Not at all UNPLEASANT or noticable like the GM. I "understand" that the Regen feature should only kick in when the brake is applied (I have installed one brake lever from the kit & wired it up to the controller). To be honest - I do not perceive the Regen working when I use the brake - but as soon as throttle off the bike immediately slows down to stop & is very hard to pedal. There really is no free wheel at all. Could the regen be on constantly? If so how do you correct this? On a good note the motor has plenty of power when the throttle is used - but I REALLY like pedalling to assist hub motors & to keep fit. (ie: like my 9C). It would appear that I would not have to pedal to acheive good speed with the GM - but to extend range & assist on steep hills - I want topedal 90% of the time. My daily commute is 60km with 5 serious stop/start inclines in quick succession over 4kms    
I doubt that I will have a enough power left in the batteries (12AH) without conserving the batteries by pedalling during the commute to tackle these hills as they are at the 26km mark. The return trip is a little better - about 10% quicker due to general decline over the terrain that allows me to back off the motor (9C) & pedal flat out to achieve good speeds. As it currently stands I could not ride this bike with the GM over any distance if the batteries went flat ie: no throttle (even pushing the bike is noticably difficult). Without the motor -the bike it self is very quick & light to ride even with panniers fitted. Although I familiar with other motors & do not expect the free wheel performance of a hi spec bicycle hub - the current situation means that I am dependent appyling power all time. My 9C does not have the performance of the GM but is happy to hike along with moderate pedal effort & I am hoping for a similar performance from the GM.  This is my 1st experience with a GM500w hub.  Are the above experiences described above - normal?       I hope not. To be honest I'm a little disheartened by the "performance" without power - I expect I really have gotten something very wrong in the build and would appreciate any help. Happy to load some pics if required - though have'nt a clue as to how  Thanks in advance guys.       

[biohazardman]

When the regen function is turned on, you wire it that way, the bike is hard to push/pedal unless you are using the throttle.  The regen is either on or off depending on whether you have the two blue wires, on the controller, connected or open. It works with the throttle anytime you let off you are in regen mode unless you let off all the way then it just wastes the energy but still slows you down. Carefull manipulation of the throttle gives one very precise control of braking and speed. You can hook a switch up to turn it on or off but you must be at a stop to make the change.  You can also use a battery power switch to do the same.  Check your spokes for tightness and see that you have the required amount of spacers between the frame dropout and the motor on the wired side as this keeps the bearings in the tight and motor happy.  Also see that the other side of the wheel has clearance and you are not dragging on the freewheel.  I had to add a washer there to keep this from happening on mine.   There is more info on an earlier post I made that may help.  Someone here also had a bad bearing on thier kit if I remember correctly.  Good luck.



http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=279.0

[nitecheck]

Hi  - Took the bike out today. Short ride 18km's round trip. I have added a few more spacers on both sides of axle - has not fixed the resistance problem.  Might have to look at replacing the bearings. Though funny enough I have noticed the rasping noise to be less prominent towards the end of the trip. Next step is to turn the regen off & see if this helps with free wheel speed & pedaling. Ran into another problem pedalling up a big hill - motor cut out 2 times on the climb. Not sure what to make of this - walked to the top of hill & motor was fine again on the flat. Took my 9C bike up the same hill (pedalling) - no problems at all - so it's not an issue of not having enough power.

On a different note : I locked the bike up outside the store for 10 mins (to pick up some electrial supplies for the bike) - came back & to find some lowlife had almost taken my handle bars (all hex bolts on the headstem had been completely undone) - they where just a short step away from getting a very nice bar +euro bar & XT shifters, disc brakes etc. I never thought someone would try to strip the bike!  Steal it yes - but strip a bike! ...time to get some torx head nuts - I guess.

Thanks for the adivce - will keep working on the GM.   

[biohazardman]

Hi  - Took the bike out today. Short ride 18km's round trip. I have added a few more spacers on both sides of axle - has not fixed the resistance problem.  Might have to look at replacing the bearings. Though funny enough I have noticed the rasping noise to be less prominent towards the end of the trip. Next step is to turn the regen off & see if this helps with free wheel speed & pedaling. Ran into another problem pedalling up a big hill - motor cut out 2 times on the climb. Not sure what to make of this - walked to the top of hill & motor was fine again on the flat. Took my 9C bike up the same hill (pedalling) - no problems at all - so it's not an issue of not having enough power.

On a different note : I locked the bike up outside the store for 10 mins (to pick up some electrial supplies for the bike) - came back & to find some lowlife had almost taken my handle bars (all hex bolts on the headstem had been completely undone) - they where just a short step away from getting a very nice bar +euro bar & XT shifters, disc brakes etc. I never thought someone would try to strip the bike!  Steal it yes - but strip a bike! ...time to get some torx head nuts - I guess.

Thanks for the adivce - will keep working on the GM.
   

Good that you noticed the loose bars could have been a bad thing otherwise.  Pedaling with no regen is not a problem, as their is no resistance at all, but a 60lb bike means a bit lower gear and a bit more werq for me.  I am pretty good at knowing how far I can stretch things after pedaling home about a mile once. Good luck with the bike expect you will have it dialed in soon enough.

[nitecheck]

Update. Took the bike out again - this time along a route with undulating terrain (14 kms) to get used to how the controller works. I found I could emulate free pedal with very careful use of the throttle. (I have cut down the throttle & smoothed off to be comfortable - the throttle has been set up hard against the standard bike grip - allowing the speed to be set "friction cruise control". With one brake lever being connected to the controller I can cut the power to the motor or thottle off...very useful.
Unfortunately the controller I have appears to be an early model - there are no blue wires to be jumpered to turn the regen off.   So I am going to test the controller as is & see if I can get used to the way it works. Otherwise I think it would be better to simply buy a non regen model. The motor still cuts out up long mid or steep hills - which is a real pain. I'll practice throttle control over my new test route to see if careful throttle control overcome this..my 12AH batteries are new & I really do not want to have to grade them at this stage. But if I do 20AH LifePo4 pack seem to be the way to go. The rasping noise has pretty much gone - maybe the motor needed to be "run in"? Need to find a loose spoke or two that squeeks under acceleration - but otherwise things are looking better.
 

[nitecheck]

Hi All just a follow up - the Non Regen contoller arrived yesterday. It's has a slightly larger heat sink (case) than the regen model.
Packing was excellent - even overkill. There was no way this unit was going to be damaged (took about 8 mins with a serrated knife to get to the unit) & to my surprise - Golden have also included an new moulded throttle & spare grip! Bonus....

Test rode the bike tonight - 20kms with serious hills (NO cut outs at all - even without pedaling up a hill that the Regen simply gave up on a 3rd of the wat up), average speed for the ride was 24km/h (a bit down on my road bike 28-29 km average).

But lots more torque for climbing & considering the battery pack is new - it will be better after a few disharges (conditioning). I also did not run max thottle (90% of the time as I normally do on flats) - as I really wanted to test the "freewheel" ability of the hub by pedalling - conclusion = it's great!

Last of all the controller was not even warm to touch after the ride (I am keeping it in the battery bag - out of sight - so zero air flow without a vent). I have a Day run planned tomorrow with panniers to check how well the controller handles the heat at higher air temps (by all accounts a vent may be required but I will see) & to see what impact the panniers have on range/average speed. I still have not found the cause of the squeal at the 24km/h mark - but with tweaking the spokes I should have this eliminated soon...otherwise I am one happy camper

Cheers

[Leslie]

There's nothing wrong with regen, It helps slow you down fast when you have a lot of wieght and it works better than I expected it to.  Dont be afraid to upgrade to a bigger tougher tyre to protect the rim from common failure,

[Leslie]

Last of all the controller was not even warm to touch after the ride (I am keeping it in the battery bag - out of sight - so zero air flow without a vent). I have a Day run planned tomorrow with panniers to check how well the controller handles the heat at higher air temps (by all accounts a vent may be required but I will see) & to see what impact the panniers have on range/average speed. I still have not found the cause of the squeal at the 24km/h mark - but with tweaking the spokes I should have this eliminated soon...otherwise I am one happy camper

Cheers

That sound is queer, maybe the hub just in a moment resonated.  Watch out for your gear changer, it sqeuals as it cuts deep into a Hub, there is a point where they get close ,adjust it properly..

[nitecheck]

Hi 317537 - tx's for your comments.

The initial rasping sound was very concerning - I was almost about to dismantle the hub & see if something had come loose & was rubbing on the hub body. But the noise is now gone - so I'll live & let live unless it returns. I have the front hub model - so no issues with chain/frame rubbing etc...I've got hydraulic disc brakes on the rear & really need to look at installing a disc on the front hub - so this will be the opportunity to have a peak inside for anthing unusual 

The squealing noise seems cuts in right on 24km/h - but if you pedal/throttle on it goes away after a few seconds - weird...but I will retension the spokes to see if this sorts the problem.

Re: The regen controller (unexpected cut off's on hills a side) is simply not for me. There really is nothing "wrong" with it - if you wish to use the motor as the primary source of power & have the hub regenerate power whilst assisting very effectively with braking -- but I need to be able to freewheel & pedal.
For me the Regen ability of the controller is offset by the fact that I extend range/conserve power, by pedaling/freewheeling just like I would on a non-pwr assisted bike. So I do not need the regen to charge the battery pack.

I'm still not convinced that my early model controller does not have a problem (it was 2nd hand after all) - as the new controller from GM is tackling the hills with ease. When I get a chance I will reset the controller & set it up per the manual. Funny enough the new controller worked faultlessly out of the box - with out having to dial it in to the motor. (since I have never had to do this with other contollers I'll have another read on the GM notes as to how to do this). Until them the Regen has been stored as my spare 

Re: Tyres - although I would love to run a 700c or 26" rim with a slick road tyre 32-35mm - I doubt the rim would take the abuse from the road..the hub appears to heavy to use a low profile/slim slick with out really increasing the risk of blowout/pinch flats & rim damage. I'm happily running a 26" puncture resistant hybrid/road tyre on the front at 50psi & a 700c/32 puncture resistant hybrid slick on the rear.

Cheers

[Leslie]

Yes I'm not always convinced big bags are that great. 2.4X 26" is what im using with a 3 x thick thorn proof tube @ 50 psi.  I'm using a steal rim which has proven good.  I tried a 26x 3 on the front but it added wobbles. I use a 26x 1.95 front now with a thorn proof tube on that too, and it feels safe and plenty strong enough Slicks would be ok but we do a lil dirt riding around here too.

[nitecheck]

hi all - I completed the dreaded  Day run ...

(2 trips of 29.5 kms with a recharge of 9 hrs between trips) - Pedalling 90% of the time.
Bike - 11kg Urban Flat Bar (light MTB/Road Cross -no suspension) fully kitted with small front panniers (wider front profile) & a pair of tiny rear panniers with battery top bag. Bike weight fully loaded (GM kit, battery pack, weather clothing, tools, tubes, lighting etc) <34kg

Test A - 
Terrain mainly a continual incline that ends in group very steep hills - the last being the steepest. 20km of the trip has no stop/starts.
Average speed 29 km/h
Throttle used in the 70-100% range
Battery cut-outs on last hill at the 28.5km mark - very little assistance available.
Controller very warm to touch - but not hot. (venting will be required)
Top speed 48.7 kms/h (down hill)
Range 29 kms  - some intermittent power avail over the last 0.5kms
Top regular speed on flats about 34-37kms/h with pedal assist.

Test B -   
Opposite (return trip) terrain mainly a continual decline starting with a group very steep hills. 20km of the trip has no stop/starts.
Average speed 26.16 km/h - (early battery cut-outs reduced average speed - from 30.1 km/h prior to the cut outs)
Throttle used in the 90-100% range ( was a litte over confident due to the results of Trip A & travelling mainly on declining terrain) 
Battery cut outs occured at 24 kms mark - (still some hills on the last leg of the trip - bike heavily assisted by pedalling up the hills at slower speeds)
Controller warm to touch - but not overly warm.
Top speed 56.3 kms/h (down hill)
Range 24 kms - some intermittent power avail over the last 6 kms
Top regular speed on flats about 36-39kms/h with pedal assist.

Sorry - but I could not find my multi-meter to record battery status - before/after rides. (I think one of my boys has stashed it  ) but will have to find it evaluate the SLA battery pack's performance.                         

This was a promising 1st run - however a LIFEPO4 battery back 36v/20AH is required for 30km+ ranges -if 90-100% throttle is used.
Performance for the motor was strong for about 65-70% of the distance on each trip but you begin to notice the batteries (SLA 14AH) struggling after the 20km point. As the SLA's capacity to hold charge will deteriorate with warmer weather & regular deep discharging - I would consider them suitable for 20km ranges. I would expect much higher average speeds with a LIFEPO4 battery - due to the higher AH (no cut outs), higher efficiency , less weight (-4kgs) - allowing the entire trip to be power assisted. Overall the GM kit performed well (the 24km/h to 24.5km/h squeal point aside - but seems to be isolated to my particular hub) & has identified that higher performing batteries or more moderate throttle use is required to travel 30kms with assistance.
The performance on the GM bike is very strong over 20kms when compared to my 9C road bike - however...I find that it is a hare versus the tortise scenario up to the 20km mark. With the GM being the hare..after 20kms the higher speed of the GM kit is offset by the continued performance of the tortise. So I'm off to source a LIFEPO4 pack to keep the hare happy. 

Hopefully this test will assist ppl who are interested in the GM kit (non regen) as a mode of commuting in real life situations.