Author Topic: Dead Magic Pie or can I resuscitate it????  (Read 60565 times)

Offline robertozm

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Re: Dead Magic Pie or can I resuscitate it????
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2011, 02:23:42 PM »
Bikemad:
I believe that these pcb has through-hole connections (most 2-sided pcb has it nowadays), which makes the connection sound, electrically. it also helps transferring tin through the holes to the other pads... Especially since it seems that he has a rather powerful iron...

Edit:
But yes, sound advice. ;) It will be a balance between making sure the tin flows through the hole, and not overheat the point... :)

Nevertheless, his soldering would be better than original. ;)

Now I am really confused.  What should I do??
Buy a new condensator, put the thin on the dark side while I heat the legs from the phase wires side of the pcb until flow throuh the hole?  Because I can´t think of any other way of doing it, but the problem with this method is that I will work really not seen were the melted thin is spreading so  given that the tracks of the +/- are so close...???? ???

Do I have any way to test if the capacitor is correctly connected?

Thanks again for your time, because as you can imagen from my questions I don't have a clue about electronics... :-\

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Dead Magic Pie or can I resuscitate it????
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2011, 02:33:57 PM »
What???  Did I put it in the wrong side????
Do you mean that I shouldn´t have solder it in the dark side but in the phase wires side of the pcb??

In my defense about the soldering of the condensator, I have to say that I let a little bit of thin to go through the holes and I hope they are alright but Do I have anyway to check it out??  What will happens if it isnt properly solded?  Will the controller burnt or it will just wont work?
I hope you can tell me something about it because I was going to close the wheel... ;(

Can you tell me anythig about the battery questions of the previous post?

Don't panic Roberto, you've fitted it correctly, it's just that the circuit board was not originally designed to have them fitted on that side.

I'm not really sure how you can actually test these joints, other than using an Ohmmeter to do a continuity test between the pins and the contact surface on the underside of the board.

Unfortunately, there's always a chance that something may have been affected when a component comes loose, but as I'm no expert on the electronics of these controllers, it's difficult to say what components could possibly have been affected.

You'll just have to hope the thing works when you get it back together again and try it.



Bikemad:
I believe that these pcb has through-hole connections (most 2-sided pcb has it nowadays), which makes the connection sound, electrically. it also helps transferring tin through the holes to the other pads... Especially since it seems that he has a rather powerful iron...

Edit:
But yes, sound advice. ;) It will be a balance between making sure the tin flows through the hole, and not overheat the point... :)

Nevertheless, his soldering would be better than original. ;)

Cornelius, I wasn't too sure about the through-hole connection when I looked closely at this:



I couldn't decide whether I was looking at solder or circuit board material where the hole may have been drilled.

Either way, some of those original joints leave a lot to be desired.

Alan



« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 09:58:46 PM by Bikemad »

Offline robertozm

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Re: Dead Magic Pie or can I resuscitate it????
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2011, 02:55:44 PM »

What???  Did I put it in the wrong side????
Do you mean that I shouldn´t have solder it in the dark side but in the phase wires side of the pcb??

In my defense about the soldering of the condensator, I have to say that I let a little bit of thin to go through the holes and I hope they are alright but Do I have anyway to check it out??  What will happens if it isnt properly solded?  Will the controller burnt or it will just wont work?
I hope you can tell me something about it because I was going to close the wheel... ;(

Can you tell me anythig about the battery questions of the previous post?

Don't panic Roberto, you've fitted it correctly, it's just that the circuit board was not originally designed to have them fitted on that side.

I'm not really sure how you can actually test these joints, other than using an Ohmmeter to do a continuity test between the pins and the contact surface on the underside of the board.

Unfortunately, there's always a chance that something may have been affected when a component comes loose, but as I'm no expert on the electronics of these controllers, it's difficult to say what components could possibly have been affected.

You'll just have to hope the thing works when you get it back together again and try it.


Bikemad:
I believe that these pcb has through-hole connections (most 2-sided pcb has it nowadays), which makes the connection sound, electrically. it also helps transferring tin through the holes to the other pads... Especially since it seems that he has a rather powerful iron...

Edit:
But yes, sound advice. ;) It will be a balance between making sure the tin flows through the hole, and not overheat the point... :)

Nevertheless, his soldering would be better than original.  ;)

Cornelius, I wasn't too sure about the through-hole connection when I looked closely at this:



I couldn't decide whether I was looking at solder or circuit board material where the hole may have been drilled.

Either way, some of those original joints leave a lot to be desired.

Alan

Too late!!! ;D I nearly had a heart attack!! ;D ;D ;D

I had every srewed back and I have undo everything except the solder in order to take a close up pic, and apparently the thin has not go throuhg the hole as you can see in the pic...  So, What can I do???  Do I leave it as it is?  Or do I try to solder it again a new one placing the thin in the dark side and heating the legs from the phase wires side until it melts even thouhg if I do    it this way I wont be really seeing what I am doing?

EDIT: I HAVE JUST TEST CONTINUITY AND IT IS OK!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D

Another question, what is the porpouse of this yellow plastic sheet between the mofsets and the alumiinum plate, It doesnt make sense to apply thermal paste to the plastic sheet and not directly to the mosfset isn´t it??   As far as I know the plastic is not a very good thermal conductor, or the porpouse of this yellow plastic is as an electrical insulator??  Can I take the plastic sheet out and apply new thermal paste (of my computer) and screw the board directly to the aluminium sheet??

I hope this will be my last question to you before you send me far far away...  ;)  What do you think about the battery with two voltage output configuration I have?

Roberto


« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 03:07:24 PM by robertozm »

Offline Cornelius

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Re: Dead Magic Pie or can I resuscitate it????
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2011, 03:24:28 PM »
That plastic sheet are there to electrically insulate the mosfets from the metal, since the tab on the fets with the hole in are internally connected to one of the three legs of the fets...
The plastic have ok thermal properties, but to fill any uneven surfaces, you should also apply a small dab of paste to make sure there's a good thermal connection.

As for the capacitor legs; since it works, i'm right. ;D It would have been better if you had seen som tin on the other side too, but I think your soldering are better than it was originally.
If the controller acts up again, you know what to do... ;)

Offline robertozm

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Re: Dead Magic Pie or can I resuscitate it????
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2011, 03:28:08 PM »
That plastic sheet are there to electrically insulate the mosfets from the metal, since the tab on the fets with the hole in are internally connected to one of the three legs of the fets...
The plastic have ok thermal properties, but to fill any uneven surfaces, you should also apply a small dab of paste to make sure there's a good thermal connection.

As for the capacitor legs; since it works, I'm right. ;D It would have been better if you had seen som tin on the other side too, but I think your soldering are better than it was originally.
If the controller acts up again, you know what to do... ;)

Thanks again Cornelius. I will screw everything back and try to make it work.

Could you tell me your opinion about the configuration I have with my battery with 24v and 36v output??
Roberto

Offline Cornelius

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Re: Dead Magic Pie or can I resuscitate it????
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2011, 03:44:45 PM »
About tapping 24v out of the battery?
It's never a good solution to do that to cells in series.

Now, I do    not know the Magic pie with the internal controller as well as I do     the standard motor with external controller, but I understand it's the same controller. The external controller have a thin wire which needs battery power to make the controller operate. On the external controller, this can (should) be used as power on/off control. (that wire should be underneath that white hotglue just right to your phase wires... I can find out which one later...)

If the internal controller have the same option, one should use that one instead of breaking the main power. The reason for a failing key-switch when operating directly on the main power cables, are actually those condensators you just soldered. ;) Each time you turn on the power, those condensators charge quickly, making a huge spark inside the key-switch.

Using the thin control-power wire instead, those condensators will always be charged, and sparks (and wear) are avoided.

When the controller are turned 'off' with that control-wire, the controller uses 2-3mA, so the drain on the battery are neglible.
Besides, it gives one the opportunity to utilitize the anti-theft alarm... ;D

Edit:
Regarding the capacitors;
you should dab a little hot-glue around the bases of those caps, to prevent them from vibrating and come loose again.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 03:49:39 PM by Cornelius »

Offline robertozm

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Re: Dead Magic Pie or can I resuscitate it????
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2011, 04:05:19 PM »
About tapping 24v out of the battery?
It's never a good solution to do that to cells in series.

Now, I do   not know the Magic pie with the internal controller as well as I do    the standard motor with external controller, but I understand it's the same controller. The external controller have a thin wire which needs battery power to make the controller operate. On the external controller, this can (should) be used as power on/off control.

If the internal controller have the same option, one should use that one instead of breaking the main power. The reason for a failing key-switch when operating directly on the main power cables, are actually those condensators you just soldered. ;) Each time you turn on the power, those condensators charge quickly, making a huge spark inside the key-switch.

Using the thin control-power wire instead, those condensators will always be charged, and sparks (and wear) are avoided.

When the controller are turned 'off' with that control-wire, the controller uses 2-3mA, so the drain on the battery are neglible.
Besides, it gives one the opportunity to utilitize the anti-theft alarm... ;D
Then...
Do you think that using a few cell to get 24v to feed a relay (24v/100amp that swicht off the power in) can damaged the cells?  Because I don't know exactly the power consumption of the power relay but I suppose is not very big, isnt it?
Could you tell me which is the wire that feeds the controller in the external controlers (I have 2 units Bac-281), and if I don't missunderstand you, this wire is the one that should go to the key swicht?? Isnt it?
Roberto

Offline Cornelius

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Re: Dead Magic Pie or can I resuscitate it????
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2011, 04:40:17 PM »
I'd guess the relay would drawsomewhere between 100 and 300mA; it's not much, but could throw the bms off the track? I'm not sure...

Looking at your controller, you have a 12-pin connector to the right of the phase wires; the downmost to the left; the one marked 'G', should have battery power to turn the controller on.
I do not think the internal controller have any wires out from the wheel connected to this point. (the internal controllers might even have this point internally jumpered...)

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Dead Magic Pie or can I resuscitate it????
« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2011, 04:47:15 PM »
Could you tell me which is the wire that feeds the controller in the external controlers (I have 2 units Bac-281), and if I don't missunderstand you, this wire is the one that should go to the key swicht?? Isnt it?

Roberto, check out the details in the Wiring diagram, the switch is connected to the terminal marked "G" on the controller. I think this feed is usually just linked across to the Battery + connection through the harness on the external controllers.

Alan
 

Offline robertozm

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Re: Dead Magic Pie or can I resuscitate it????
« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2011, 05:03:55 PM »
I'd guess the relay would drawsomewhere between 100 and 300mA; it's not much, but could throw the bms off the track? I'm not sure...

Looking at your controller, you have a 12-pin connector to the right of the phase wires; the downmost to the left; the one marked 'G', should have battery power to turn the controller on.
I do not think the internal controller have any wires out from the wheel connected to this point. (the internal controllers might even have this point internally jumpered...)

I needed to know because I have the intention to make a two wheel drive on another bike with two hbs36 (one front and another rear).
Talking about the battery I thought the bms of battery would take care of the difference of discharge and compensate it but clearly I don't have a clue about electronics... ;D

Now I am going to make a few more "tunning".  One will be to feed the relay with an external pack of 3x9v battery in series that I will connect from the outside (another antithef device  :D)
And the most important one is to make another connection for an additional external battery (36v 16ampLiPO4) I bought last year and I have not use it yet, so in theory I will double my range.  What I have not figure out yet is the Regen ability of the Magic Pie will recharge both batteries??
Thanks for your help ;)
Roberto

Offline robertozm

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Re: Dead Magic Pie or can I resuscitate it????
« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2011, 05:12:57 PM »
Could you tell me which is the wire that feeds the controller in the external controlers (I have 2 units Bac-281), and if I don't missunderstand you, this wire is the one that should go to the key swicht?? Isnt it?

Roberto, check out the details in the Wiring diagram, the switch is connected to the terminal marked "G" on the controller. I think this feed is usually just linked across to the Battery + connection through the harness on the external controllers.

Alan


Hi Alan:
I was having a look at my bac 281 controller and I have found that the positive lead has one small wire that goes into the multiple connector position marked as G and with a label "switch", so all I need is to "insert" the key switch here.
It is a petty I didn´t know this before because I think I have burnt a total of 5 Key switches before I bought the relay (40€).  I will implement this system in my new project.
Tomorrow I will close the hub and give it a try.  I hope the capacitor was the problem, if not I am really lost. 
I will keep posting.
Thanks to everyone.  ;D

Offline robertozm

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Re: Dead Magic Pie or can I resuscitate it????
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2011, 07:35:00 PM »
I couldnt wait until tomorrow so I have install everything and I was really happy when the wheel spin with much less noise,
 BUT (there is alway a but with my bike >:()  I went for a ride and 25mt away of my house, everything went dead again.

The cycle analyts read are:
39.5votl, 2.730amp consumed, max amp 30.24amp.

And there are only two lights of the 3 of the twist throotle battery meter.

Any idea why this is happening??

I need HELPPP, please!!!!

Offline Cornelius

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Re: Dead Magic Pie or can I resuscitate it????
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2011, 09:19:21 PM »
Sounds suspicious... ;)

Maybe bad/weak power connections somewhere? How's your relay?

Offline DirtyGinge

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Re: Dead Magic Pie or can I resuscitate it????
« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2011, 09:44:02 PM »
in the cycle analyst, whats the minimum volts recorded ? ( I think third screen to the left, min volts, max amps)

regards
Infineon lyen edition 12 Fet
Goldenmotor Magic pie rear ....2000 Watt peak
oh yea.....Im too fat :)...but cute, oh yea, im cute

Offline robertozm

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Re: Dead Magic Pie or can I resuscitate it????
« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2011, 12:05:12 AM »
Sounds suspicious... ;)

Maybe bad/weak power connections somewhere? How's your relay?
I don't think the connections are wrong, and the relay is almost new but How can I check out if the relay is ok under load? 
Because I can ran the bike until the battery is completely empty without load... so I don't know how to do it??