GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => Magic Pie & Smart Pie Discussions => Topic started by: robertozm on March 23, 2011, 07:55:05 PM
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Hi everyone
I hope someone can help me AGAIN. And I say again because this is my third goldenmotor hub motor with problems...
At the begining of last summer I started to have some problems with 1st version of the Magic Pie, it has been running
for NO more than 100 km, and there was some strange noise wich grew up in dB under load (small hill, stop pedalling, etc),
and sometimes (when less expected) the motor stops. Everything went dead; the motor stops running, the cycleanalyst off,
the battery meter in the throttle off, so I had to turn off the key, wait 10-20 or 30sec and open the key again.
Sometimes the motor did run for another 5 meters or if lucky 100meters, and then again key off- key on.
Another thing that happened was, that the lights of the baterry meter only lite 2 of them, even though the battery was
completely charged, the batterymeter tells me that is only half full, and that happens always.
Due to the strange noise inside I thought maybe a ball bearing migth be broken (I weight about 93kg, the bike 23kg
and laptop books etc maybe another 7 kg) and maybe those broken bearings were making some mess inside the motor or
something like that.
By that time I got sick and I didnt have the will and spirit to cope with it, so I left the bike against the wall
until last Monday. I went to the shop near my house (300m) to buy some bread, and everything seemed right.
There was some strange noise but not very loud, I thought it would be the spokes... but nothing of stoping every
5 meters or on the smallest load as before, so I was really happy. But yesterday I went for a ride and I had to
come back walking because this time the key off-on didn´t work.
Today I opened the motor and I found these:
1.- This capacitor or condensator (or something like that) 63v 470uF (see picture attached) was loose between the cables, and I am not sure
were it should go because in the "dark side" there is another condensator as this one so I am not sure if this one is
in this side like the one showed by BikeMad in this post... http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=2103.msg10472#msg10472,
or not since I miss the beeper and my pcb is mx312, and Bikemad is mx315. I also don't know if the cappacitor/condensator...
it is broken or how to check if it is.
2.- There are a lot of scratches in the magnets, and where the copper coils are, there is a lot of rust. Is this normal or may I do something
like use some smooth sand paper.?
3.- When I spin the cover (the side with out the freewheel) it is not well centered and it is touching something (I can hear it)
but I don't know what (I hope is is not the coils) and I don't know how to take it off to check it out.
Please can anyone help me??
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Another pics...
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+ pics
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This is of the other side of the inner controller (as much as I can see..) where you can see the same capacitor/condensator or what ever, so I don't know if the loose one comes from this side???
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where the holes are, is a very safe bet
I would also check all the other soldering connections for good work, ( i.e. not short circuit)
your phase wires ( green yellow blue) have the look of a pretty poor solder job, and maybe they are touching the other phase wire traces on the board intermittently, worth checking out :)
Do you have solder skills for that, or know anyone ?
The capacitor, if you are not sure is not damaged, is pretty common, refit another one of similar spec ?
Regards
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sorry, forgot to mention
goes on same side as other large capacitor ( opposite side of small red one)
p.s. im drunk, so pay no attention :), but I looked at my recently removed internal controller
regards
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Roberto, I hope you're feeling much better now.
The capacitor should be fitted right next to the other one as shown here:
(https://i.imgur.com/4dmLnax.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/GtynVo3.png)
You will need to ensure that you have the polarity of the capacitor correct before soldering it back into place.
To clean off all that corrosion, it might be better to remove the stator completely to prevent getting any more debris on the magnets.
A wire brush should clean most of the corrosion from the stator's laminated core, but be careful not to catch the windings with the wire brush, as you could well remove some of the insulation material from the wires, which could result in a short circuit.
Once cleaned, brush some thin oil or use spray grease on the stator to try and prevent further corrosion.
Good luck, and keep us updated with your progress.
Alan
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Roberto, I hope you're feeling much better now.
The capacitor should be fitted right next to the other one as shown here:
(https://i.imgur.com/4dmLnax.png)
You will need to ensure that you have the polarity of the capacitor correct before soldering it back into place.
To clean off all that corrosion, it might be better to remove the stator completely to prevent getting any more debris on the magnets.
A wire brush should clean most of the corrosion from the stator's laminated core, but be careful not to catch the windings with the wire brush, as you could well remove some of the insulation material from the wires, which could result in a short circuit.
Once cleaned, brush some thin oil or use spray grease on the stator to try and prevent further corrosion.
Good luck, and keep us updated with your progress.
Alan
Hi Alan:
Thanks for the pics, BUT,( there is always a but...)
How do I get the cover plate of this side, because I have try but I cant!!!
How do I know the polarity of the capacitor and the polarity of the place I have to solder it to??
Do you think as DirtyGinge about the phase wires?? Do you think I should resolder them?
What about the phase wires touching the wires traces on the board?? What are the wire traces on the board?
Because when he says it might be touching them intermittently, that will answer why sometimes it works and others dont.
And the last one, as I can see in the pics you attached your stator and magnets looks pretty clean, not as
mine that are full of debris and cracks, marks, scratches... is that normal.
Do you think the problems I had, stops, noises and lights in battery meter could be a result of a poor soldering in
this loosen component?
Thanks for your reply
PD: I am feeling better, but now we have really good weather around here I would love to take my camera and my bike and going for a ride...
Thanks for asking ;)
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sorry, forgot to mention
goes on same side as other large capacitor ( opposite side of small red one)
p.s. im drunk, so pay no attention :), but I looked at my recently removed internal controller
regards
Thanks for your quick reply, I will start looking for a new capacitor today
Ps. Have a nice hangover ;)
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Could inside of motor and magnets be painted to prevent this?
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To clean off all that corrosion, it might be better to remove the stator completely to prevent getting any more debris on the magnets.
A wire brush should clean most of the corrosion from the stator's laminated core, but be careful not to catch the windings with the wire brush, as you could well remove some of the insulation material from the wires, which could result in a short circuit.
Once cleaned, brush some thin oil or use spray grease on the stator to try and prevent further corrosion.
Good luck, and keep us updated with your progress.
Alan
I have brush it with lot of care not to damage the windings and this is the after and before... and afterward I have sprayed very mildly TF2 manufactured by WeldTite, is the lubricant with teflon I use for the chain. I hope it will work. Now it looks a little bit more like yours, but not as clean :(
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That looks much better Roberto, now you need to try and remove the particles which are stuck to the magnets inside the hub.
Alan
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That looks much better Roberto, now you need to try and remove the particles which are stuck to the magnets inside the hub.
Alan
Hi Alan:
Could you tell me how to take the cover plate of the other side?? Because today I have taken the allen srews that hold the controller but I don't have enouhg room to solder the components, so I have to do it from the other side, but I cant figure out how. without taking out the "open washer" (I don't know how to say it in spanish so I have no clue the name in english) that is at the bottom of the axle...??? Because I don't know with tool to use for this.
Here are the before-After of the magnets
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Hi Alan:
Could you tell me how to take the cover plate of the other side?? Because today I have taken the allen srews that hold the controller but I don't have enouhg room to solder the components, so I have to do it from the other side, but I cant figure out how. without taking out the "open washer" (I don't know how to say it in spanish so I have no clue the name in english) that is at the bottom of the axle...??? Because I don't know with tool to use for this.
Roberto, those pictures were from Hyena's original review of the Magic Pie prior to its release, which is why it is so nice and clean.
You should be able to remove the cover without having to remove the circlip (Open Washer) as it is only there to prevent the wires from rubbing against the inside of the moving hub cover.
Just so you know, this is a pair of external circlip pliers, which is the correct tool for removing the circlip:
(http://www.pjme.co.uk/acatalog/RS125-FRONT-SPROCKET-CIRCLIP.jpg)(http://choicediy.co.uk/images/CPO135.jpg)
The bearing, wires and circlip should remain on the axle as the cover is removed, but be careful that the bearing does not try to move on the axle, as excessive movement of the bearing could trap and damage the wires.
Check out this post (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=2632.msg15547#msg15547) for some useful pictures which should help.
If you clean up the pins on the old capacitor, it should solder back into the circuit board. There is a little "+" sign on the circuit board where the positive pin should be. Your pins will probably both be the same length, but the marking on the capacitor's casing should identify its polarity:
(http://www.beavisaudio.com/techpages/Caps/polarity.jpg)
As far as the phase wire connections are concerned, I suggest you look closely with a magnifying glass to make sure the soldered wires are not touching anything they shouldn't on the circuit board.
I think that the cutting out may be due to a battery problem, unless an obvious short is visible on any of the soldered phase connections.
Can you recall what the highest Amp reading was on the Cycle Analyst?
Alan
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Roberto, those pictures were from Hyena's original review of the Magic Pie prior to its release, which is why it is so nice and clean.
You should be able to remove the cover without having to remove the circlip (Open Washer) as it is only there to prevent the wires from rubbing against the inside of the moving hub cover.
The bearing, wires and circlip should remain on the axle as the cover is removed, but be careful that the bearing does not try to move on the axle, as excessive movement of the bearing could trap and damage the wires.
Check out this post (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=2632.msg15547#msg15547) for some useful pictures which should help.
If you clean up the pins on the old capacitor, it should solder back into the circuit board. There is a little "+" sign on the circuit board where the positive pin should be. Your pins will probably both be the same length, but the marking on the capacitor's casing should identify its polarity:
As far as the phase wire connections are concerned, I suggest you look closely with a magnifying glass to make sure the soldered wires are not touching anything they shouldn't on the circuit board.
I think that the cutting out may be due to a battery problem, unless an obvious short is visible on any of the soldered phase connections.
Can you recall what the highest Amp reading was on the Cycle Analyst?
Alan
HI Alan:
I don't know where do you live but if you are near Seville (Spain) I must invite you to a beer or something like that because you are always saving my bike!!! and also thanks to improve my vocabulary "Circlip" ;)
Finally I managed to take the cover of and I found :
1.- The external jacket of the wires are dammage but it didnt get to the core, so I think a little duct tape will be enough.
2.- The bearings have a "little" bit of rust and dirt, but seams ok. I was thinking to change it but I wont.
3.- The polarity indication you said is this one in the pic attached. There is a + signal, so I supposed is that. I have already buy new condensator and if you say that it is I will solder it tomorrow morning.
On the other hand, yesterday I said I heard a noise like if something was brushing against the cover but there are no signal of that, so maybe it was just the dirt and rust.
About the phase wires, I have been looking but as I don't know what I have to look for, herewith I send a closeups hoping you (or anyone) can see if there is something wrong. I think they are ok, but you tell me.
And finally about the cutting out, this morning I was looking another post talking about dead cell, so I have checked out what voltage do the cells have, and all of them except one have 3.3v and 1 has 3.4v. So apparently they are all right arent they??? Is there other
way to check out the cells???
I don't remember the higest amp reading on the cycle analyst, but tomorrow if I finish the soldering and mounting back the will I will look at it and post it back, but Why it is important that data? I can tell you that even my battery is rated 16 amp, when the cycle
ananlyst says I have consumed 10 amp the bike wont run :(, and I never figure out why.
Last May I installed a relay because I always burnt the key swicth so I decided to intall a relay of 24v 100Amp, and to feed this relay I solder I wire to a negative of the 4th cell, so when I measured the voltage it give me the 24v I need. I think this can not cause
the problem because the bms will compensate the discharge diference between the 36v for the motor and the 24vlt for the relay, isnt it?? Or do I have to instal something that will lower the voltage from 36 to 24 even though I will have a less efficient power consumtion and
a heat "problem" (because the voltage is lower because is dissipated as heat, isnt it?) Do you think this could cause the problem?
I am thinking to change all the feeding of the relay with an external battery array of 3x9volt battery, but I have to look for a cheap 9v rechargable battery on ebay o something like that because here I only found them at 13€ and I think that´s expensive...
Again thanks for your patience and your help
Roberto
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More pics
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About the phase wires, I have been looking but as I don't know what I have to look for, herewith I send a closeups hoping you (or anyone) can see if there is something wrong. I think they are ok, but you tell me.
Roberto, the connection from the green phase wire does not look good in the picture, but it's difficult to see from the camera angle whether it is touching the nearby surface area of the blue phase contact.
See attachment below for more details.
I hope it makes sense to you.
Alan
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That's really a good example of 'cold soldering'. :) Cold soldering happens when the iron are hot enough to melt the tin, but haven't heated the metal properly. The result are poor mechanical connections, and after a time, poor electrical connections.
Now, there wil be an practical exam, so pay attention. :)
When soldering; one should use the iron to heat the soldering point/wire until the tin melts on the soldering point/wire, NOT on the iron. The tin should then flow like fluid around the soldering point/wire. Also, one should take care to not heat the soldering point longer than necessary. :)
Larger mass of metal to be soldered requires a more powerful soldering iron, like 40-60W. Small points/component legs etc. are fine with a 15-25W iron. If one have a powerful iron and want to solder small points; try to use no more than 5 seconds. Heating a point too long are also bad, and could damage both component and the copper paths on the printed circuit board.
Class dismissed. ;D
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Roberto, the connection from the green phase wire does not look good in the picture, but it's difficult to see from the camera angle whether it is touching the nearby surface area of the blue phase contact.
See attachment below for more details.
I hope it makes sense to you.
Alan
Hi Alan:
Thanks again!!!
Today I will start with the soldering and I will de-resolder the phase wires, keeping in mind the advice of Cornelius. I will post some pics when done.
What do you think about my battery configuration with two outputs, 24v for the relay and 36v for the motor? May this cause the problem?
Why, when the cycle analyst tell me that I have consumed 10 amps the motor stops even though my battery is 16amp?
Or looking at the pics, do you think the phase wires bad soldering might be doing some short circuit and the only cause of the problems?
Thanks
Roberto
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That's really a good example of 'cold soldering'. :) Cold soldering happens when the iron are hot enough to melt the tin, but haven't heated the metal properly. The result are poor mechanical connections, and after a time, poor electrical connections.
Now, there wil be an practical exam, so pay attention. :)
When soldering; one should use the iron to heat the soldering point/wire until the tin melts on the soldering point/wire, NOT on the iron. The tin should then flow like fluid around the soldering point/wire. Also, one should take care to not heat the soldering point longer than necessary. :)
Larger mass of metal to be soldered requires a more powerful soldering iron, like 40-60W. Small points/component legs etc. are fine with a 15-25W iron. If one have a powerful iron and want to solder small points; try to use no more than 5 seconds. Heating a point too long are also bad, and could damage both component and the copper paths on the printed circuit board.
Class dismissed. ;D
Hi Cornelius;
Thanks for your help and your master class ;) I really need it because I have done a lot of soldering but with no idea if I was doing it right or wrong...
If I have understand you right: to solder a wire, I have to heat the wire with the Iron (soldering iron), and applied the tin to the wire until it melts?? because what I usually do is to place the tin between the iron and the wire until it melts.
When I will have to solder the condensator, I will have to apply the heat to the legs of the condensator until the tin melts. My iron soldering is a powerful one so I hope I wont burnt it :)
Thanks ;D
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Hi All
with regards to the battery, it may be voltage sagging affecting the battery, so that if you travel for 10mph for the full distance, you might get closer to your 16AH, however with increased current demand, the voltage drops much more quickly, hitting your low voltage cut-off much quicker..
With my 48V 12AH battery, at normal use, I can get 10-11AH, but if I absolutely hammer it, can be as low as 7AH
Hood luck with the phase wires, they didnt look right to me, might not be touching, but if any moisture got in there it could cause some issues....just take your time, make sure you have plenty of space etc
regards
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Hi All
with regards to the battery, it may be voltage sagging affecting the battery, so that if you travel for 10mph for the full distance, you might get closer to your 16AH, however with increased current demand, the voltage drops much more quickly, hitting your low voltage cut-off much quicker..
With my 48V 12AH battery, at normal use, I can get 10-11AH, but if I absolutely hammer it, can be as low as 7AH
Hood luck with the phase wires, they didnt look right to me, might not be touching, but if any moisture got in there it could cause some issues....just take your time, make sure you have plenty of space etc
regards
Hi Dirtyginge:
Sorry but the voltage is over 30 volts and when it reach the 10 amp, it goes dead :(
Another question is it possible to change the low voltage cut off, to a lower one?
Thanks
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If I have understand you right: to solder a wire, I have to heat the wire with the Iron (soldering iron), and applied the tin to the wire until it melts??
This is correct.
Both the wire AND the point where the wire are to be soldered to should melt the tin easily.
Edit:
The right position for the tip of the soldering iron should be touching both the leg of the component and the point where it are to be soldered to. When it comes to wires, it's not always easy to do that.
/edit
because what I usually do is to place the tin between the iron and the wire until it melts.
This is not (quite) the correct way to do it. ;) (it's not the completely wrong way either ;) )
It is ok to melt a little tin on the soldering iron when you start, just to make the thermal transfer between the iron tip and the point to solder better. After that, one should make sure that the rest of the applied tin melts on the soldering points. :)
The main point is to make sure that the tin that melts and fill the soldering point, melts when touching the tin to the soldering points. This way, one knows for sure that the tin have completely surrounded and bonded to the material.
Oh, and do not overdo the amount of tin either; a large round (ish) blob of tin are too much. The result of just the right amount of tin should look something like the Eiffeltower (when viewing the soldering point from the side.) ;)
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If I have understand you right: to solder a wire, I have to heat the wire with the Iron (soldering iron), and applied the tin to the wire until it melts??
This is correct.
Both the wire AND the point where the wire are to be soldered to should melt the tin easily.
Edit:
The right position for the tip of the soldering iron should be touching both the leg of the component and the point where it are to be soldered to. When it comes to wires, it's not always easy to do that.
/edit
because what I usually do is to place the tin between the iron and the wire until it melts.
This is not (quite) the correct way to do it. ;) (it's not the completely wrong way either ;) )
It is ok to melt a little tin on the soldering iron when you start, just to make the thermal transfer between the iron tip and the point to solder better. After that, one should make sure that the rest of the applied tin melts on the soldering points. :)
The main point is to make sure that the tin that melts and fill the soldering point, melts when touching the tin to the soldering points. This way, one knows for sure that the tin have completely surrounded and bonded to the material.
Oh, and do not overdo the amount of tin either; a large round (ish) blob of tin are too much. The result of just the right amount of tin should look something like the Eiffeltower (when viewing the soldering point from the side.) ;)
Hi Cornelius:
Thanks for your time:
I have finish with the desoldering and resoldering, I hope I have done it right. What do you think??
The pic nº 00 is just after I managed to desolder the green wire, I don't know if the pcb is damaged ???
It wasnt easy, because it was hard to melt the thin and I had to change the soldering tip (thin one for a much larger one) and placed it over the wire, but when I got it loose, it left a lot of thin over the pcb, and since I don't have nothing to suck the tin I had to remove it by melting it and cleaning the tip, than again and again...
The other ones are how I solder it again, I hope it is ok? ::)
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More pics of soldering...
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This my Effiel tower for the condensator ;D
Is it ok?
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I can see that you have a soldering iron which are a little bit too powerful of the job.
You see those wrinkles on the tin? that's a sign of tin that has been heated for too long. :) The surface of the melted tin should be wrinklefree and smooth...
But do not worry, it's a lot better than those cold soldering that was there. ;) And practice makes perfect.
I'd say that your solders are - electrically and mechanically speaking; much better than the original ones... :)
Now, notice your Eiffeltower; yours have 'legs' that turn inwards; the real life Eiffeltower does not. ;D In other words; a bit too much tin.
But you're excused, since you didn't have any tool to suck away the old tin, which are a 'must' to make a perfect re-solder.
(Old/used soldering tin tends to wrinkle easy and behave a bit 'stickey/gooey', but does make a reasonable connection; a dab of fresh tin to the old tends to 'freshen it up'. (but are not the best solution.)
Edit:
Do not forget to snip off the protuding legs of that condensator. :)
(there are two schools of opinions regarding snipping of legs; before or after soldering. (some says that the mechanical force from the plier weakens the soldering point; some say it doesn't matter) ;) )
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Roberto, I've just had a quick look at your pictures, but I'm concerned about these joints:
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3042.0;attach=4290;image)
With the internal controllers, the capacitor is actually fitted on the wrong side of the circuit board, so the area that the pins would normally be soldered to is also on the wrong side.
It is important that enough solder is allowed to flow down the gap between the pins and the holes to hopefully make a good joint between the pins and the copper tracks on the underside of the board:
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3042.0;attach=4274;image)
Just soldering it to the small circles on the top side of the board is unlikely to produce continuity between the capacitor pins/legs and the correct track on the circuit board. If you take a good look at the soldered resistor wire in the bottom right corner of the lower picture, you should be able to see exactly what I'm trying to explain, it appears to be soldered nicely from the top side, but it looks to me as if it's barely touching against track on the underside, and this is the place where it should have a decent joint.
Although you may have soldered the capacitor securely to the board, it won't be able to function correctly without a decent connection.
I'm rather concerned that a decent joint between both pins and the underside of the board may not be easily achieved, which might account for the capacitor falling off in the first place! ;)
Alan
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Bikemad:
I believe that these pcb has through-hole connections (most 2-sided pcb has it nowadays), which makes the connection sound, electrically. it also helps transferring tin through the holes to the other pads... Especially since it seems that he has a rather powerful iron...
Edit:
But yes, sound advice. ;) It will be a balance between making sure the tin flows through the hole, and not overheat the point... :)
Nevertheless, his soldering would be better than original. ;)
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Roberto, I've just had a quick look at your pictures, but I'm concerned about these joints:
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3042.0;attach=4290;image)
With the internal controllers, the capacitor is actually fitted on the wrong side of the circuit board, so the area that the pins would normally be soldered to is also on the wrong side.
It is important that enough solder is allowed to flow down the gap between the pins and the holes to hopefully make a good joint between the pins and the copper tracks on the underside of the board:
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3042.0;attach=4274;image)
Just soldering it to the small circles on the top side of the board is unlikely to produce continuity between the capacitor pins/legs and the correct track on the circuit board. If you take a good look at the soldered resistor wire in the bottom right corner of the lower picture, you should be able to see exactly what I'm trying to explain, it appears to be soldered nicely from the top side, but it looks to me as if it's barely touching against track on the underside, and this is the place where it should have a decent joint.
Although you may have soldered the capacitor securely to the board, it won't be able to function correctly without a decent connection.
I'm rather concerned that a decent joint between both pins and the underside of the board may not be easily achieved, which might account for the capacitor falling off in the first place! ;)
Alan
What??? Did I put it in the wrong side????
Do you mean that I shouldn´t have solder it in the dark side but in the phase wires side of the pcb??
In my defense about the soldering of the condensator, I have to say that I let a little bit of thin to go through the holes and I hope they are alright but Do I have anyway to check it out?? What will happens if it isnt properly solded? Will the controller burnt or it will just wont work?
I hope you can tell me something about it because I was going to close the wheel... ;(
Can you tell me anythig about the battery questions of the previous post?
Thanks again
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Bikemad:
I believe that these pcb has through-hole connections (most 2-sided pcb has it nowadays), which makes the connection sound, electrically. it also helps transferring tin through the holes to the other pads... Especially since it seems that he has a rather powerful iron...
Edit:
But yes, sound advice. ;) It will be a balance between making sure the tin flows through the hole, and not overheat the point... :)
Nevertheless, his soldering would be better than original. ;)
Now I am really confused. What should I do??
Buy a new condensator, put the thin on the dark side while I heat the legs from the phase wires side of the pcb until flow throuh the hole? Because I can´t think of any other way of doing it, but the problem with this method is that I will work really not seen were the melted thin is spreading so given that the tracks of the +/- are so close...???? ???
Do I have any way to test if the capacitor is correctly connected?
Thanks again for your time, because as you can imagen from my questions I don't have a clue about electronics... :-\
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What??? Did I put it in the wrong side????
Do you mean that I shouldn´t have solder it in the dark side but in the phase wires side of the pcb??
In my defense about the soldering of the condensator, I have to say that I let a little bit of thin to go through the holes and I hope they are alright but Do I have anyway to check it out?? What will happens if it isnt properly solded? Will the controller burnt or it will just wont work?
I hope you can tell me something about it because I was going to close the wheel... ;(
Can you tell me anythig about the battery questions of the previous post?
Don't panic Roberto, you've fitted it correctly, it's just that the circuit board was not originally designed to have them fitted on that side.
I'm not really sure how you can actually test these joints, other than using an Ohmmeter to do a continuity test between the pins and the contact surface on the underside of the board.
Unfortunately, there's always a chance that something may have been affected when a component comes loose, but as I'm no expert on the electronics of these controllers, it's difficult to say what components could possibly have been affected.
You'll just have to hope the thing works when you get it back together again and try it.
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/fingerscrossed.GIF)
Bikemad:
I believe that these pcb has through-hole connections (most 2-sided pcb has it nowadays), which makes the connection sound, electrically. it also helps transferring tin through the holes to the other pads... Especially since it seems that he has a rather powerful iron...
Edit:
But yes, sound advice. ;) It will be a balance between making sure the tin flows through the hole, and not overheat the point... :)
Nevertheless, his soldering would be better than original. ;)
Cornelius, I wasn't too sure about the through-hole connection when I looked closely at this:
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3042.0;attach=4273;image)
I couldn't decide whether I was looking at solder or circuit board material where the hole may have been drilled.
Either way, some of those original joints leave a lot to be desired.
Alan
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What??? Did I put it in the wrong side????
Do you mean that I shouldn´t have solder it in the dark side but in the phase wires side of the pcb??
In my defense about the soldering of the condensator, I have to say that I let a little bit of thin to go through the holes and I hope they are alright but Do I have anyway to check it out?? What will happens if it isnt properly solded? Will the controller burnt or it will just wont work?
I hope you can tell me something about it because I was going to close the wheel... ;(
Can you tell me anythig about the battery questions of the previous post?
Don't panic Roberto, you've fitted it correctly, it's just that the circuit board was not originally designed to have them fitted on that side.
I'm not really sure how you can actually test these joints, other than using an Ohmmeter to do a continuity test between the pins and the contact surface on the underside of the board.
Unfortunately, there's always a chance that something may have been affected when a component comes loose, but as I'm no expert on the electronics of these controllers, it's difficult to say what components could possibly have been affected.
You'll just have to hope the thing works when you get it back together again and try it.
Bikemad:
I believe that these pcb has through-hole connections (most 2-sided pcb has it nowadays), which makes the connection sound, electrically. it also helps transferring tin through the holes to the other pads... Especially since it seems that he has a rather powerful iron...
Edit:
But yes, sound advice. ;) It will be a balance between making sure the tin flows through the hole, and not overheat the point... :)
Nevertheless, his soldering would be better than original. ;)
Cornelius, I wasn't too sure about the through-hole connection when I looked closely at this:
I couldn't decide whether I was looking at solder or circuit board material where the hole may have been drilled.
Either way, some of those original joints leave a lot to be desired.
Alan
Too late!!! ;D I nearly had a heart attack!! ;D ;D ;D
I had every srewed back and I have undo everything except the solder in order to take a close up pic, and apparently the thin has not go throuhg the hole as you can see in the pic... So, What can I do??? Do I leave it as it is? Or do I try to solder it again a new one placing the thin in the dark side and heating the legs from the phase wires side until it melts even thouhg if I do it this way I wont be really seeing what I am doing?
EDIT: I HAVE JUST TEST CONTINUITY AND IT IS OK!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Another question, what is the porpouse of this yellow plastic sheet between the mofsets and the alumiinum plate, It doesnt make sense to apply thermal paste to the plastic sheet and not directly to the mosfset isn´t it?? As far as I know the plastic is not a very good thermal conductor, or the porpouse of this yellow plastic is as an electrical insulator?? Can I take the plastic sheet out and apply new thermal paste (of my computer) and screw the board directly to the aluminium sheet??
I hope this will be my last question to you before you send me far far away... ;) What do you think about the battery with two voltage output configuration I have?
Roberto
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That plastic sheet are there to electrically insulate the mosfets from the metal, since the tab on the fets with the hole in are internally connected to one of the three legs of the fets...
The plastic have ok thermal properties, but to fill any uneven surfaces, you should also apply a small dab of paste to make sure there's a good thermal connection.
As for the capacitor legs; since it works, i'm right. ;D It would have been better if you had seen som tin on the other side too, but I think your soldering are better than it was originally.
If the controller acts up again, you know what to do... ;)
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That plastic sheet are there to electrically insulate the mosfets from the metal, since the tab on the fets with the hole in are internally connected to one of the three legs of the fets...
The plastic have ok thermal properties, but to fill any uneven surfaces, you should also apply a small dab of paste to make sure there's a good thermal connection.
As for the capacitor legs; since it works, I'm right. ;D It would have been better if you had seen som tin on the other side too, but I think your soldering are better than it was originally.
If the controller acts up again, you know what to do... ;)
Thanks again Cornelius. I will screw everything back and try to make it work.
Could you tell me your opinion about the configuration I have with my battery with 24v and 36v output??
Roberto
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About tapping 24v out of the battery?
It's never a good solution to do that to cells in series.
Now, I do not know the Magic pie with the internal controller as well as I do the standard motor with external controller, but I understand it's the same controller. The external controller have a thin wire which needs battery power to make the controller operate. On the external controller, this can (should) be used as power on/off control. (that wire should be underneath that white hotglue just right to your phase wires... I can find out which one later...)
If the internal controller have the same option, one should use that one instead of breaking the main power. The reason for a failing key-switch when operating directly on the main power cables, are actually those condensators you just soldered. ;) Each time you turn on the power, those condensators charge quickly, making a huge spark inside the key-switch.
Using the thin control-power wire instead, those condensators will always be charged, and sparks (and wear) are avoided.
When the controller are turned 'off' with that control-wire, the controller uses 2-3mA, so the drain on the battery are neglible.
Besides, it gives one the opportunity to utilitize the anti-theft alarm... ;D
Edit:
Regarding the capacitors;
you should dab a little hot-glue around the bases of those caps, to prevent them from vibrating and come loose again.
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About tapping 24v out of the battery?
It's never a good solution to do that to cells in series.
Now, I do not know the Magic pie with the internal controller as well as I do the standard motor with external controller, but I understand it's the same controller. The external controller have a thin wire which needs battery power to make the controller operate. On the external controller, this can (should) be used as power on/off control.
If the internal controller have the same option, one should use that one instead of breaking the main power. The reason for a failing key-switch when operating directly on the main power cables, are actually those condensators you just soldered. ;) Each time you turn on the power, those condensators charge quickly, making a huge spark inside the key-switch.
Using the thin control-power wire instead, those condensators will always be charged, and sparks (and wear) are avoided.
When the controller are turned 'off' with that control-wire, the controller uses 2-3mA, so the drain on the battery are neglible.
Besides, it gives one the opportunity to utilitize the anti-theft alarm... ;D
Then...
Do you think that using a few cell to get 24v to feed a relay (24v/100amp that swicht off the power in) can damaged the cells? Because I don't know exactly the power consumption of the power relay but I suppose is not very big, isnt it?
Could you tell me which is the wire that feeds the controller in the external controlers (I have 2 units Bac-281), and if I don't missunderstand you, this wire is the one that should go to the key swicht?? Isnt it?
Roberto
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I'd guess the relay would drawsomewhere between 100 and 300mA; it's not much, but could throw the bms off the track? I'm not sure...
Looking at your controller, you have a 12-pin connector to the right of the phase wires; the downmost to the left; the one marked 'G', should have battery power to turn the controller on.
I do not think the internal controller have any wires out from the wheel connected to this point. (the internal controllers might even have this point internally jumpered...)
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Could you tell me which is the wire that feeds the controller in the external controlers (I have 2 units Bac-281), and if I don't missunderstand you, this wire is the one that should go to the key swicht?? Isnt it?
Roberto, check out the details in the Wiring diagram (http://www.goldenmotor.com/e-Bike-DIY/Cruise%20Controller%20Wiring%20Diagram.pdf), the switch is connected to the terminal marked "G" on the controller. I think this feed is usually just linked across to the Battery + connection through the harness on the external controllers.
Alan
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I'd guess the relay would drawsomewhere between 100 and 300mA; it's not much, but could throw the bms off the track? I'm not sure...
Looking at your controller, you have a 12-pin connector to the right of the phase wires; the downmost to the left; the one marked 'G', should have battery power to turn the controller on.
I do not think the internal controller have any wires out from the wheel connected to this point. (the internal controllers might even have this point internally jumpered...)
I needed to know because I have the intention to make a two wheel drive on another bike with two hbs36 (one front and another rear).
Talking about the battery I thought the bms of battery would take care of the difference of discharge and compensate it but clearly I don't have a clue about electronics... ;D
Now I am going to make a few more "tunning". One will be to feed the relay with an external pack of 3x9v battery in series that I will connect from the outside (another antithef device :D)
And the most important one is to make another connection for an additional external battery (36v 16ampLiPO4) I bought last year and I have not use it yet, so in theory I will double my range. What I have not figure out yet is the Regen ability of the Magic Pie will recharge both batteries??
Thanks for your help ;)
Roberto
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Could you tell me which is the wire that feeds the controller in the external controlers (I have 2 units Bac-281), and if I don't missunderstand you, this wire is the one that should go to the key swicht?? Isnt it?
Roberto, check out the details in the Wiring diagram (http://www.goldenmotor.com/e-Bike-DIY/Cruise%20Controller%20Wiring%20Diagram.pdf), the switch is connected to the terminal marked "G" on the controller. I think this feed is usually just linked across to the Battery + connection through the harness on the external controllers.
Alan
Hi Alan:
I was having a look at my bac 281 controller and I have found that the positive lead has one small wire that goes into the multiple connector position marked as G and with a label "switch", so all I need is to "insert" the key switch here.
It is a petty I didn´t know this before because I think I have burnt a total of 5 Key switches before I bought the relay (40€). I will implement this system in my new project.
Tomorrow I will close the hub and give it a try. I hope the capacitor was the problem, if not I am really lost.
I will keep posting.
Thanks to everyone. ;D
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I couldnt wait until tomorrow so I have install everything and I was really happy when the wheel spin with much less noise,
BUT (there is alway a but with my bike >:() I went for a ride and 25mt away of my house, everything went dead again.
The cycle analyts read are:
39.5votl, 2.730amp consumed, max amp 30.24amp.
And there are only two lights of the 3 of the twist throotle battery meter.
Any idea why this is happening??
I need HELPPP, please!!!!
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Sounds suspicious... ;)
Maybe bad/weak power connections somewhere? How's your relay?
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in the cycle analyst, whats the minimum volts recorded ? ( I think third screen to the left, min volts, max amps)
regards
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Sounds suspicious... ;)
Maybe bad/weak power connections somewhere? How's your relay?
I don't think the connections are wrong, and the relay is almost new but How can I check out if the relay is ok under load?
Because I can ran the bike until the battery is completely empty without load... so I don't know how to do it??
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in the cycle analyst, whats the minimum volts recorded ? ( I think third screen to the left, min volts, max amps)
regards
I think I change that when I first installed the cycle analyst, but now it says 15 volts, but I am not sure if the voltage has drop that low ???
Tomorrow morning I will go for a ride keeping an eye on the screen of the minimum voltage, so I can tell you more accuaretly.
Roberto
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Hi roberto
The cycle analyst will record it on one of the screens, usually if the battery is cutting out, it will record the last voltage before the battery cuts....besides, you need to look forward :), you might hit some drunk ginger cyclyst
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Hi everyone.
This morning I made a few changes. First thing I change was the BMS, and the problem persisted.
Then I change the Battery (called A) for the Spare one (called B). Since the B battery has not the double voltage output 24-36, I used the A to feed the relay, and......VOILA It workss!!!
Everything seemed alright, but (as always there is a BUT >:() the cycle analist started to give me strange data as -2000w, -39volts..., and when I had to stop at an intersection, everything went dead again. Key off, key on and live again!!! Then I started to ride uphill, full throttle, braking hard, starting hard, and if the wheel stops completely, again everthing turned off. Key off, key on and everything started again. But as long as the wheel didn´t stop completely, it seems to work.
Since I went for a test ride, I had wires provisionaly connected and the lid of my aluminium box (were the battery, relay, Bms, and connections are hosted) and a thread of rope holding the battery from falling, so I went back home to make the connections right and to close the box.
Looking for some conectors I found a voltage regulator L7864CV I didnt remember I bought long time ago for a lights "project). So instead of having the battery A in the pannieres with to long wires... I decided to install this voltage regulator, but in order to do that I had to make a few changes in the connections I had. And in the emotional state of joy I made a mistake and feed the relay with 36volt and it is burnt :'(
So now I can´t do anything until Monday when I hope I will find another relay or place an order for it, and I still have the doubts about if the stopping was a result of faulty connection or anything else...
Does anyone have an idea why the cycle analyst did gave me negative values and so high??
Roberto
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Hi guys!!
It has been a hard working week, and with not very good results. I opened the relay, and nothing seemed burnt, I tried it for about 20 times and it worked, but what seemed to be broken was the voltage regulator, so instead I installed a resistance (the guy at the electronic shop made the calculations) and when measured the voltage is 24volt.
I had a lot of connectors inside the box and a few of them didn´t look very well so I decided to replace them for a new conector, so instead of the typical GoldenMotor Black, Blue, Green, Yellow, Maroon, and White, I have a 6 pin connector. Obviously, I have renounce to a few functions such us pedelec, or rear and front light, but I do have cruise, throttle,and brakes. I took the opportunity to cut the length of a few wires in order to make them to my needs.
Another important improvement was to add the battery nº2 to the system. So I placed diodes (big ones) in each phase, and they "add" to the system before the relay swicht. I replace the fuse holder of each battery for a bigger one (10AWG) and new 30amp fuse (car type).
Everything was "repacked" inside the box and yesterday I went for a ride for almos 25 minutes/10km and 4.35amp consumed until everything went dead again.
While riding I was looking very closely to the voltage and It never dropped of 34 volts (I had both batteries connected), 32.92 amp maximum, a maximum of 750 wat going uphill at 12km/h and the consumption was high, nearly 1 amp every km but I was not pedalling at all ::). The maximum velocity was 40 km/h going dowhill, and max regen 0.20 amp I think it was 200wat, but I don't really remember that data.
As I said, evertything went dead when I was going up in a very mild uphill. I touch the hub and was mildly warm. I waited a few seconds and turned the key, the cycle analyst flashed a second and then dead, I tried again but this time no flashing, no nothing :( . I waited for about 2-3 minutes, but nothing.
I had to pedal back home, where I opened the box, and the Bms was not hot, the resistance was not really hot, BUT the relay was hot. I tried to make the relay work without the keyswicth but it works ramdomly. I look and the voltage was correct 24volt, so I suppose the relay is the weak point, but it is nearly new, I opened and everything seams right, so I don't know if this is my problem or is anything else.. >:(
I am thinking to change this electromecanic relay for a solid state one. I am not sure if buying an 60Amps or a 80amp like this one
http://cgi.ebay.com/Solid-State-Relay-SSR-DC-DC-80A-3-32VDC-5-220VDC-/370495498474?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item564340a8ea
What do you think about this change and which one do you recomend?
Can anyone have an idea what might be wrong?? ???
Thanks.
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Hello is it this wire that need switch inline and run to battery instead of being hooked to main battery feed as is?
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Hello is it this wire that need switch inline and run to battery instead of being hooked to main battery feed as is?
Thanks Rollin76. If you check out a few replys back, BikeMad told me that ::), but now I have a Magic Pie with Internal controller, and I can not have access to that wire.
Thanks anyway.
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Hi again:
I have just come back (Walking-Pedalling) with my dead bike. Last night I left the batteries charging and disconectted them at about 1pm today (I think fully charge) and went for a ride. I wachted the cycle analyst readings and 22.74amp was the maximum amperage going uphill without pedalling and 35.2volts was the minimum voltage I saw.
For 2o minutes was running very well but suddenly and at 36.1volt and 19 amp everything shut down again. Today I left with the box open so I could check out if anything was hot, so I can assure the Bms was not hot at all, the keyswicht wasnt either, the relay was a little bit hot but I could touch it with my finger tips without any problem, but the hub was really hot. So I waited for about 25 minutes in the shade and try to "ignite" it again, and as always , sometime the cycle analyts flash for 1 sec and thats it.
I was wondering... if the hub motor was as hot to cut off, the motor would has stop, but the cycle analist should be alive isnt it??? So if not it is because there is no current going though the relay and hence to the cycle analyst, therefore my problem is with the relay???
Please guys I need your help. Could you please tell me what you think about the above, and if you agree with the relay, which relay do you recomend of the one I show 2 replies above??
Roberto :'(
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would it be better to remove the relay to take a potential problem out of the loop ?
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would it be better to remove the relay to take a potential problem out of the loop ?
But I need it in order not to burn the key swicth. How do I turn off everything???
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Roberto, it definitely appears to be a voltage supply problem, not a motor cutting out problem.
If both batteries have their own BMS and the diodes fitted for the second pack are facing the right way, it should rule out a faulty BMS causing the problem, unless the BMS on the second battery also suffers from the identical problem. ???
You really need to be able to test for battery voltage being supplied to the relay when the fault occurs to be able to rule out the batteries.
That solid state relay is not ideal for this application, as they generate heat during use and will also continually draw a small amount of current from the battery when switched off.
Although 2mA is not very much, it will still drain 1.5Ah per month out of your battery if left connected but unused over the winter months etc.
Check out this post (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=3086.msg18630#msg18630) for further information on Solid State Relays.
If you have enough room to fit one of these inside your box:
(http://www.racingplus.com/img/Large/Longacre-Economy_Battery_Disconnect_Switch-45748_622.jpg)
these battery isolator switches are much cheaper than a solid state relay, don't require any current to operate and can cope with at least 100Amps. These switches are normally available at most car or marine spares specialists.
Another good alternative is a latching relay:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/Latchingrelay60A.JPG)
Click for more details. (http://cgi.ebay.com/250672035433)
This 60Amp latching relay has the big advantage of only drawing a small amount of power for less than a second while the relay is switching from the "OFF to ON" or "ON to OFF" state.
The relays pictured above seem to be the double coil version (three pins) which operate slightly differently to the single coil version shown in the circuit below, the single pin would connect to battery negative through the resistor and momentarily switching battery voltage to each of the two other pins will turn the relay on or off dependant upon which pin is being fed with battery voltage.
You could use a momentary (ON) OFF (ON) (springs back to centre Off position) rocker or toggle switch or even two separate momentary push to make buttons. If using two separate buttons, I would recommend using a separate resistor on each of the 36V supplies to the button switches and connect the single pin on the relay directly to battery negative. This would prevent the single resistor from being overloaded if both buttons were pressed simultaneously.
Here is Leslie's diagram showing how the single coil (two pins) latching relay can be switched:
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2428.0;attach=3232;image) (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=2428.msg14050#msg14050)
Hope this helps,
Alan
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I'd go for the battery isolator switch; those are designed for high DC amperage and costs little, and are also available in 300A versions with little extra cost. They are designed to switch on/off main power in large caravans and boats...
I still think it's a bad idea with your relay tapping part of the battery cells... ;) (Maybe it is really that which are at the base of your problem? the bms freaking out a bit because of uneven load of the cells?) (I am well versed in solar/wind power, and tapping for example 12V from a 24V battery bank are a big no-no in those communitys. ;) )
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Roberto, it definitely appears to be a voltage supply problem, not a motor cutting out problem.
If both batteries have their own BMS and the diodes fitted for the second pack are facing the right way, it should rule out a faulty BMS causing the problem, unless the BMS on the second battery also suffers from the identical problem. ???
You really need to be able to test for battery voltage being supplied to the relay when the fault occurs to be able to rule out the batteries.
That solid state relay is not ideal for this application, as they generate heat during use and will also continually draw a small amount of current from the battery when switched off.
Although 2mA is not very much, it will still drain 1.5Ah per month out of your battery if left connected but unused over the winter months etc.
Check out this post (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=3086.msg18630#msg18630) for further information on Solid State Relays.
If you have enough room to fit one of these inside your box:
these battery isolator switches are much cheaper than a solid state relay, don't require any current to operate and can cope with at least 100Amps. These switches are normally available at most car or marine spares specialists.
Another good alternative is a latching relay:
This 60Amp latching relay has the big advantage of only drawing a small amount of power for less than a second while the relay is switching from the "OFF to ON" or "ON to OFF" state.
The relays pictured above seem to be the double coil version (three pins) which operate slightly differently to the single coil version shown in the circuit below, the single pin would connect to battery negative through the resistor and momentarily switching battery voltage to each of the two other pins will turn the relay on or off dependant upon which pin is being fed with battery voltage.
You could use a momentary (ON) OFF (ON) (springs back to centre Off position) rocker or toggle switch or even two separate momentary push to make buttons. If using two separate buttons, I would recommend using a separate resistor on each of the 36V supplies to the button switches and connect the single pin on the relay directly to battery negative. This would prevent the single resistor from being overloaded if both buttons were pressed simultaneously.
Here is Leslie's diagram showing how the single coil (two pins) latching relay can be switched:
Hope this helps,
Alan
Hi Alan:
Thanks again for the time you take in your research and detailed answers.
Actually I don't have enough room for the battery isolator switches, and if I want to fit it I will have to do mayor reforms such us new holes, and cover the old ones etc...
About the latching relay, I have read 3 times your text but I do have lack of electronical knowlegde, so I don't even know how to start telling you what I don't understand ;)
So I think I will keep on with my solid state relay in which I do have a big doubt. You talk about continuous draw of current but the way I have it configured the drawn of current from the relay will only occur while using the bike because when the key switch is off no current is going to the relay, isn´t it?? See wiring diagram attached.
About measuring the voltage, when it is working (plug it to the relay) I can read 24.2volt. When disconected of the relay 39volt (With no load the resistance doesnt lower the voltage, the guy at the electronic components shop told me...???)
Which one do you think will fit better the 40, 60 or 80amp... The difference in price is not much and I think the 80amp will work with less stress (ie. temperature) then the others isnt´t it?? Since the box is made of aluminium I will take the protective foam of the inside where I will install the SSrelay with some thermal paste to improve the heat transfer and I think this will be enough, don't you think so?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Solid-State-Relay-SSR-DC-DC-40A-3-32VDC-5-220VDC-/250793127324?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a646f6d9c
http://cgi.ebay.com/Solid-State-Relay-SSR-DC-DC-60A-3-32VDC-5-220VDC-/390300012140?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5adfb18e6c
http://cgi.ebay.com/Solid-State-Relay-SSR-DC-DC-80A-3-32VDC-5-220VDC-/370495498474?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item564340a8ea
Again thanks for your time;)
Roberto
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I'll get back to this later as I'm just off to work now, but the diodes in your diagram do not allow the second battery to give any assistance at all.
Alan
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I'd go for the battery isolator switch; those are designed for high DC amperage and costs little, and are also available in 300A versions with little extra cost. They are designed to switch on/off main power in large caravans and boats...
I still think it's a bad idea with your relay tapping part of the battery cells... ;) (Maybe it is really that which are at the base of your problem? the bms freaking out a bit because of uneven load of the cells?) (I am well versed in solar/wind power, and tapping for example 12V from a 24V battery bank are a big no-no in those communitys. ;) )
Hi Cornelius:
I already undid that. That is why now I feed the resistance with 36volt, and get 24volt. I lose energy in unneeded heat but since I first tried with a voltage regulator that apparently was broken the guy at the electronic shop suggested to do it this way. I also look the voltage in each cell (without load) and there were a difference of 0.1volt in 1 pack of cells, so I suppouse they are all right.
Another reason because I want to install the Solid Stat relay ( http://cgi.ebay.com/Solid-State-Relay-SSR-DC-DC-80A-3-32VDC-5-220VDC-/370495498474?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item564340a8ea ) is because I don't have to do anything with the supply since the cope with 3 to 32volt (My battery is giving 40volt when completely charge and I hope those +8volt wont burnt the relay)
I have everything configured for the relays and changing that... uffffff I really prefer not to do it.
Thanks
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I'll get back to this later as I'm just off to work now, but the diodes in your diagram do not allow the second battery to give any assistance at all.
Alan
You are right. I think I screw them in the wrong way.... ::)
My electrical and electronical knowledge is going backwards. One step forward, two bacwards....
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Ok, you're good the way you tapped the power for the relay. :)
Are you sure you'll need those diodes for the second battery? They do steal 0.6V each (around 0.4V if they're schottky diodes), and would present an inbalance when power are drained. Besides, I think Bikemad are correct; the diode on the minus side are the wrong way (if drawn correctly, that is. ;D )
Edit:
Also, consider your analyst; it also could be the faulty partner? it does sit in the middle of your main power line to the controller... :)
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Ok, you're good the way you tapped the power for the relay. :)
Are you sure you'll need those diodes for the second battery? They do steal 0.6V each (around 0.4V if they're schottky diodes), and would present an inbalance when power are drained. Besides, I think Bikemad are correct; the diode on the minus side are the wrong way (if drawn correctly, that is. ;D )
Edit:
Also, consider your analyst; it also could be the faulty partner? it does sit in the middle of your main power line to the controller... :)
Everything I have read about a second battery they always recomend to put the Diodes in order not to charge one battery with the other... if you know what I mean.
I was not sure if the diodes were needed in both phases but as I could not find anything about it I put it in both.
About the diode type, herewith I send you a pic, I hope you could tell me if they are the correct ones, and the only thing I can read is 40 HF120 and the simbol of diode.
Long time ago I thought the cycle analyst could be the problem and I email the cycle analyst guys and they told me the have never had a faulty shunt, and that it would be very unlike it...
which of the Solid state relays do you recomend me, the 40, 60 or 80amp? If I take the 80amp wouldnt be working much more relaxed than the 40amp?
Thanks for your time.
Roberto
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The diodes... 40A, 1200V max. typical forward voltage drop: 1.3V...
I'd say drop the diodes...
What happens when the diodes are in place are: Power are drawn only from your first battery until the voltage on bat1 drops below 'bat2-1.3V'; only then will you have the power from both batteries...
The only need for a diode between 2 batteries in parallel, would be during charging, and all lithium based batteries with bms should have no equipment connected when charging; it confuses the bms/charger...
Edit:
When 2 equal batteries are connected in parallel, and are of equal age/wear, the load during discharge should be near equal, and should not hurt each other... It is a point to keep the wires from each battery equal in length and size to the point where they're parallelled.
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HI :)
I mean remove all obstacles whilst you fault find...then you can add each component back one by one until done or fault found
I use just straight anderson connectors, no switch.... u have built a precharge resistor that I just plug in for 10 seconds, then remove and connect the andersons together.....capacitors are all charged and very minimal spark
I also use 2 battery packs together without any diodes...doesnt block any regen and as long as the batteries are pretty evenly matched, there may be some slight discharge into each other, but fuses are fitted inline to protect from anything drastic like forgetting to charge one battery....1 20 amp inline car fuse per battery , prevents kentucky fried fingers...
At the end of the day, one battery might put out 4AH, 1 put out 3.8 Ah, and there is a small imbalance, but no biggie
You can check the batteries are balanced by doing a set journey with a set speed for each battery, then charge them using an inline turnigy watt meter to measure the AH put back into each battery...they should end up roughly the same
theres a pic of the inline resistor in another post somewhere, less than £10 to built.....2 andersons and a 5 watt resistor 1ohm...stops the lightning bolts, but keeps as much bare metal between the batteries and connectors
As for the cycle analyst, is it standalone ?, yes as long as the shunt has power then the cycle analyst remains on, even if you pedal without a battery the cycle analyst will power due to the power being created by the pie.....if its cutting out, seems like your problems are either then shunt...or the circuit before the shunt..even if the cycle analyst is faulty, all the shunt does is feed the bypass current from the shunt to the cycle analyst...
My electronics are not pretty, but build to be problem free ( apart form this weeks short circuit)......one rule we use in I.T. ( and martial arts, well karate for fat people...) when designing large building computer setups..and multilayered networking setups .KISS...keep it simple...i mean why do a massive triple backflip and flying turnaround round kick, when a simple punch in the face will do lol
Hopefully this helps, and doesnt sound too arrogant, don't mean to by any means ;), I mean im ginger, how bad can life get :D
regards
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The diodes... 40A, 1200V max. typical forward voltage drop: 1.3V...
I'd say drop the diodes...
What happens when the diodes are in place are: Power are drawn only from your first battery until the voltage on bat1 drops below 'bat2-1.3V'; only then will you have the power from both batteries...
The only need for a diode between 2 batteries in parallel, would be during charging, and all lithium based batteries with bms should have no equipment connected when charging; it confuses the bms/charger...
Edit:
When 2 equal batteries are connected in parallel, and are of equal age/wear, the load during discharge should be near equal, and should not hurt each other... It is a point to keep the wires from each battery equal in length and size to the point where they're parallelled.
I can´t have "wires from each battery equal in length and to the point where they're parallelled", since one of the batteries is inside the box and the other is in the pannier.
They are not the same age and wear, there is a difference of nearly a year (the one in the box is a year older) and I don't keep a record of the times I have charge it, but yesterday was the first time I charge completely the battery 2.
During charging they are not disconected of the circuit but there is no load since everything is swicht off. The only thing I can do when charging is to unplugg the circular conector that conects the battery 2 to the circuit.
What about the regen function, will recharge both batteries?
Given this data, do you still think it is better to drop the diodes?
Roberto
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diodes will block regen 100%...
The purpose of the diode is to only allow power to flow one way, so if you have them going from battery to controller, then the power cannot flow from wheel back to battery......
Are the batteries both GM batteries ?
Even if just for testing, drop the diodes, drop the relay, have a straight connection between battery and wheel, test, then add back cycle analyst, test, then add relay, test, then add diodes, test etc etc
:D good luck
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I'll get back to this later as I'm just off to work now, but the diodes in your diagram do not allow the second battery to give any assistance at all.
I'm back again.
Roberto, as your batteries are connected in parallel, there should not be any need for the diodes to be fitted in the circuit at all.
Diodes are sometimes fitted to BMS protected batteries that are wired in series (as shown in the attachment below) to prevent problems if one battery reaches it Low Voltage Cutout limit before the other.
Diodes are also used to ensure that any regen current is directed through the charging side of the BMS instead of entering the battery through the output wires of the BMS.
I've tried to indicate on your diagram below, how the diodes could be connected, but your connections to the BMS do not appear to be correct, so I could not show it properly, but it will hopefully give you a rough idea.
I would try connecting the batteries without the diodes and see if the cutting out still occurs, as it could be a problem with "battery 1" BMS or even faulty cells.
Alan
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I'm back again.
Roberto, as your batteries are connected in parallel, there should not be any need for the diodes to be fitted in the circuit at all.
Diodes are sometimes fitted to BMS protected batteries that are wired in series (as shown in the attachment below) to prevent problems if one battery reaches it Low Voltage Cutout limit before the other.
Diodes are also used to ensure that any regen current is directed through the charging side of the BMS instead of entering the battery through the output wires of the BMS.
I've tried to indicate on your diagram below, how the diodes could be connected, but your connections to the BMS do not appear to be correct, so I could not show it properly, but it will hopefully give you a rough idea.
I would try connecting the batteries without the diodes and see if the cutting out still occurs, as it could be a problem with "battery 1" BMS or even faulty cells.
Alan
OK I am going to follow Yours and Cornelius advice and forget about the Diodes.
You said, and in your drawing I can see, that both phases +/- goes into the BMS, but I can´t do that with mines, because the have only - leads. You can see the pic attached and this is the same type of BMS I have in Battery 1, it has one - lead going in, 1 - for the recharging post, and the - lead for the load, because the BMS in Battery 2 only have 2 wires one - going in, and - going out, so the recharging and the load goes through the same wire.
I am going to follow the advice of DirtyGinge as well and I am going to start with the battery/bms directly conected to the hub first bat1, then bat2, then both and if it works I will be adding the cycle analyts, the swith relay, the lights etc... So I hope I will find what is driving me crazy.
Nevertheless, I am comitted to change the electromagnetic relay for the solid state one, as I understand it is more reliable, less bulky and also that I can have a better heat transfer through the aluminium box to the outside than with the other which is encloused inside a plastic box, but I would like to have your advice about which amperage is better, the 40, 60 or 80amp, because I don't know if it is better to oversize it or doing it so I will have some disadvantage. So please could you tell me, which one of these three will suit me better given that the maximum amperage record by the cycle analyst has been nearly 30 amps?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Solid-State-Relay-SSR-DC-DC-40A-3-32VDC-5-220VDC-/250793127324?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a646f6d9c
http://cgi.ebay.com/Solid-State-Relay-SSR-DC-DC-60A-3-32VDC-5-220VDC-/390300012140?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5adfb18e6c
http://cgi.ebay.com/Solid-State-Relay-SSR-DC-DC-80A-3-32VDC-5-220VDC-/370495498474?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item564340a8ea
Again thanks for your deatailed answers and the time you are taking. ;)
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Roberto, your BMS appears to use a common positive connection for the battery, power output and charging. It controls the charging and power output by switching the negative side of both circuits.
Although there isn't a heavy duty + cable going to the BMS, it shares the battery + connection through the balance lead connection.
With this particular BMS you would need to fit the diodes into the Negative battery leads and also on the negative charging leads to enable the BMS to control the regenerative charging.
Regarding the solid state relays, I have not had any experience of them, so I'm not sure how efficient they are, but I'm guessing they will generate more heat and be less efficient than a standard relay, but not having any physical contact damage caused by arcing should be a major benefit.
All of those relays are the same physical size and each would be carrying the same current in your application, but the more expensive 80A version might be better at handling the initial surge of current that charges the capacitors in the controller when you first switch on.
I am however concerned about over-volting the control voltage, as 40V is 25% higher than the maximum recommended!
I would suggest using a suitable resistor (560? 1/2 watt might be somewhere near) to drop the voltage, or alternatively an LM713T regulator chip could be used to reduce the voltage to around 30V.
Check out this link with regards to Using The LM317T To Regulate Voltage (http://www.reuk.co.uk/Using-The-LM317T-To-Regulate-Voltage.htm).
Alan
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Roberto, your BMS appears to use a common positive connection for the battery, power output and charging. It controls the charging and power output by switching the negative side of both circuits.
Although there isn't a heavy duty + cable going to the BMS, it shares the battery + connection through the balance lead connection.
With this particular BMS you would need to fit the diodes into the Negative battery leads and also on the negative charging leads to enable the BMS to control the regenerative charging.
Regarding the solid state relays, I have not had any experience of them, so I'm not sure how efficient they are, but I'm guessing they will generate more heat and be less efficient than a standard relay, but not having any physical contact damage caused by arcing should be a major benefit.
All of those relays are the same physical size and each would be carrying the same current in your application, but the more expensive 80A version might be better at handling the initial surge of current that charges the capacitors in the controller when you first switch on.
I am however concerned about over-volting the control voltage, as 40V is 25% higher than the maximum recommended!
I would suggest using a suitable resistor (560? 1/2 watt might be somewhere near) to drop the voltage, or alternatively an LM713T regulator chip could be used to reduce the voltage to around 30V.
Check out this link with regards to Using The LM317T To Regulate Voltage (http://www.reuk.co.uk/Using-The-LM317T-To-Regulate-Voltage.htm).
Alan
I hope not to abuse of your kindness but given the circuit diagram I post were exactly would you place the diodes. Do I need the 3 diode you draw in order to "allow the regen voltage to go through the bms even if the realy is swithched off". Because if the relay is swtiched off I wont have any regen going on since I will be motionless ;)
Another question. If I install the diode directly to the relay and from the diode I get two wires out one going to the fuse and another to the circular conector in the box I would save 1 diode, isn´t it? And the diode wont suffer because the current is 36volt and the max amperage would be 30amp, isnt it?
I am going to order the 80amp solid state relay, right now and I will have a look at the post you suggest to solve the problem with the over-volting...
Also I am going to wait to install the diodes until you tell me something.
Thanks for your advice.
Roberto
Edit: I have change my mind about putting another electronic device (that will die someday) and needs of another device to correct the input voltage (pair of resistance) that could and will also die one day and also both devices (relay+resistance) will generate heat inside a closed box with a battery and a bms that are not keen on heat... therefore even if it means that I will have to drill new holes and cover old ones I will go for the more "basic" solution of a battery isolator switch.
I have found one at a marine spare part shop, for 17€ but it is quite big and the guy at the shop has told me that on Monday he will speak with his supplier to look for a smaller one.
I am going to try to keep it as simply as possible as I have done reducing the connectors. Less electronics/connections = less posibilities of something going wrong.
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Roberto, the two diodes shown in the attachment below are there to ensure that regen current is controlled by the BMS.
One diode blocks the regen from going back through the Power Output side of the BMS and the other directs the regen through the charging side of the BMS.
Unless you are going to set off downhill with a fully charged battery, the diodes are probably not needed, but if you live at the top of a steep hill, it might be a good idea to fit them.
Alan
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Roberto, the two diodes shown in the attachment below are there to ensure that regen current is controlled by the BMS.
One diode blocks the regen from going back through the Power Output side of the BMS and the other directs the regen through the charging side of the BMS.
Unless you are going to set off downhill with a fully charged battery, the diodes are probably not needed, but if you live at the top of a steep hill, it might be a good idea to fit them.
Alan
Hi Alan:
I would like to know if there is any problem if I forget about battery 2 for the regen function.
I ask you this because the BMS in battery 2 hasn´t got any C- Imput. The recharge goes through P- and the +lead, therefore I can not wire up the circuit as you propouse, because I have get another wire out of the aluminium box, and because the overall regen current I get is not really important.
Yesterday, I got the Battery Isolator Swicth (14€), and I am waiting for the anderson powerpole unipolar conectors (pp45, and pp30) to arrive to start making the new wiring, but I would like to know if I can do it as shown in diagram attached, and I would like to know what AGW it is recomended, because I have been looking and searching, but I haven´t find anything "really clear". Iam thinking to use a 10 AwGfor power, and 15 Awg for recharge, lights and horn. As you know I don't have much electrical knowledge so I don't know if it is bad to oversize the thikness of the wires... I am thinking to buy Teflon insulated wire as I understand is the thinnest insulation jacket and can stand a lot of heat, to rewire 2 Hbs36 hub motors I have against the wall and if succesful maybe I will venture to rewire the Magic Pie... but I am not sure about this :-\
Thanks,
Roberto
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Hi Alan:
I would like to know if there is any problem if I forget about battery 2 for the regen function.
Roberto, if the battery is normally charged through the P- connection, then any regen current would simply follow the same path as the charger, so this should not be a problem.
I would have connected the horn and lighting supply on the output side of the cycle analyst's shunt so that it would be able to monitor all of the power being used from the battery. If you were using 3 x 50Watt halogen lights in series, you would have more than 4Amps being consumed, which would not be measured by the cycle analyst, but I'm assuming you're using the GM LED lighting which only use around 1/20 Amp (50mA) for both front and rear lamps. ;)
I would have thought that 12AWG wiring would be sufficient for your power wires, just so long as they are not too long, but 10AWG will have less voltage drop over longer distances. If the batteries and motor are both on the rear, I would use 12AWG, as it will be cheaper and lighter.
15AWG will be fine for the charging sockets, but smaller 20 or even 22AWG wire might be easier to route for the horn and LED lighting.
I would try to use as few Anderson connectors as possible, as each connection is another possible point of failure and could add more resistance to the circuit, especially when the connectors start to deteriorate with age. A decent soldered joint would be better if the connections do not need to be separated very often.
You should also make sure your Anderson connectors are properly coloured and labled to avoid any possibility of accidentally reversing the polarity of the battery or controller cables etc.
Alan
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Hi Alan:
I would like to know if there is any problem if I forget about battery 2 for the regen function.
Roberto, if the battery is normally charged through the P- connection, then any regen current would simply follow the same path as the charger, so this should not be a problem.
I would have connected the horn and lighting supply on the output side of the cycle analyst's shunt so that it would be able to monitor all of the power being used from the battery. If you were using 3 x 50Watt halogen lights in series, you would have more than 4Amps being consumed, which would not be measured by the cycle analyst, but I'm assuming you're using the GM LED lighting which only use around 1/20 Amp (50mA) for both front and rear lamps. ;)
I would have thought that 12AWG wiring would be sufficient for your power wires, just so long as they are not too long, but 10AWG will have less voltage drop over longer distances. If the batteries and motor are both on the rear, I would use 12AWG, as it will be cheaper and lighter.
15AWG will be fine for the charging sockets, but smaller 20 or even 22AWG wire might be easier to route for the horn and LED lighting.
I would try to use as few Anderson connectors as possible, as each connection is another possible point of failure and could add more resistance to the circuit, especially when the connectors start to deteriorate with age. A decent soldered joint would be better if the connections do not need to be separated very often.
You should also make sure your Anderson connectors are properly coloured and labled to avoid any possibility of accidentally reversing the polarity of the battery or controller cables etc.
Alan
Hi Alan:
When I recharge battery 2, I already do it through P- connection (since I don't have other option) but I am going to forget about getting regen current going to batery 2, since in my usual use of the regen I don't get much, so I will just leave this regen going to battery 1.
I am going to follow your advice about the conecction of the horn and light on the output side of cycle analyst, it is something I didn´t think about it.
The distance between my battery and the hub power phase connection is about 50cm so it is not much, in the future when I change the inside phase hub motor power wires I will do it with 12 AWG. As for the wiring from the battery to the hub I will use the 10AWG Hi-fi wire I already have.
About the anderson connectors, my intention is to make the minimum possible in order to if something is broken to be able to change it quickly without cutting or soldering again, because that is what I have been doing and I think it has not be a very goog idea, and it has ended a little bit messy.
And of course I will buy and install them in the correct color, black or red. I will use the 45amp for power, and the 30amp (because they are cheaper than the 15amp) for the light, horn and recharge, but I will have to wait to do it, next month
I hope I will have the time to make the trial with the isolator battery swicht this weekend. And crossing fingers wishing the fairlure was on the relay...
Again, thanks for your time. ;)
I will keep this updated with the progress of the repair and rebuilding. ;D
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I hope I will have the time to make the trial with the isolator battery switch this weekend. And crossing fingers wishing the failure was on the relay...
It sounds like you will soon be finding out for sure. ;)
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/fingerscrossed.GIF)
Alan
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fingers crossed.. :), hope ive been of some help... :D...remember....KISS, simple rule, so so so many applications .... :D
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fingers crossed.. :), hope I've been of some help... :D...remember....KISS, simple rule, so so so many applications .... :D
huh?
lol
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fingers crossed.. :), hope I've been of some help... :D...remember....KISS, simple rule, so so so many applications .... :D
Sorry but english is not my mother language and I don't get the joke ::)
But thanks also for your help and to everybody that has replied in this post ;)
Thanks
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It's not really a joke Roberto, its just another way of conveying some useful advice:
KISS is an acronym for the design principle "Keep it simple, Stupid!".[1] Other variations include "keep it short and simple"[2], "keep it simple AND stupid" or "keep it simple and straightforward".[3] The KISS principle states that simplicity should be a key goal in design, and that unnecessary complexity should be avoided.
Making things too complicated can sometimes cause more problems than you started with!
Alan
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It's not really a joke Roberto, its just another way of conveying some useful advice:
KISS is an acronym for the design principle "Keep it simple, Stupid!".[1] Other variations include "keep it short and simple"[2], "keep it simple AND stupid" or "keep it simple and straightforward".[3] The KISS principle states that simplicity should be a key goal in design, and that unnecessary complexity should be avoided.
Making things too complicated can sometimes cause more problems than you started with!
Alan
AHHH OK So I will try to KISS the bike ;D
To keep it more simple, if I do forget about regen the battery 2, can I forget about the Diodes, or on the contrary they are extrictly neccesary?
Thanks to everyone ;)
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oops, missing for a day, and ive caused mayhem, thanks alan.....i had stated the meaning further up the forum but apologies all......
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oops, missing for a day, and I've caused mayhem, thanks alan.....i had stated the meaning further up the forum but apologies all......
No need for apologies at all. That was the idea I have and posted on 2th April, but I didnt know tha "KISS" meant that. You have improve my vocabulary!!! ;D ;D
...therefore even if it means that I will have to drill new holes and cover old ones I will go for the more "basic" solution of a battery isolator switch.
I have found one at a marine spare part shop, for 17€ but it is quite big and the guy at the shop has told me that on Monday he will speak with his supplier to look for a smaller one.
I am going to try to keep it as simply as possible as I have done reducing the connectors. Less electronics/connections = less posibilities of something going wrong.[/size]
Roberto ;)
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Hi guys:
Yesterday I finished re rewiring etc... And went for a ride. I had to come back home since my rear breaks is the regen of the hub and it wasn´t working. When I get home, I touched everything to see if they were correctly conected and found out that the diode was really hot, so I decided to take it out of the circuit and leave as as when I had only one battery connected.
Once done that, I went off again. Voltage around 39volt, 28amp and 820w max, and the regen working again, I hit full throttle for about 15 minutes, up and down hill also some flat, using the regen a lot, and when going up a good hill the hub just stopped. >:(
Unlike than in previous fairlures, this time the cycle analist was on and the lights and horn worked. :o
Nothing seemed hot except the hub motor that was hot but you could thouch it with out feeling that you were burning... I decided to go back walking and after five minutes while pedalling I tried and I when of again, but was late and when arrived home I put boht batteries to recharge.
I am going to go again now and I will take a few tools with me, because if the hub motor stopped but the cycle and light where working, that meant that one of the batteries was still working, so if something was wrong now I going to disconect each one including the bms of the circuit...
Does anyone have a clue what might be wrong? Does the hub motor have a temperature sensor that kills the engine if the limit is reach? If so, what is that limit temp? How can I monitor the temp
Roberto
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Hi Roberto,
Is this an internal Magic Pie? If so its probably the "shut down when hot" system kicking in. It shuts down for about 5 mins then will go again. Try timing it to see how long before it goes again. I recall when I ran one pie it used to shut down 3/4 of the way to work. My rolling wieght with myself the bike and the trailor is over 400 lbs. I was driving it full throttle all the way on a gradual climb all the way to work and it was to much for the motor. Once I added a CA and limited the speed to 32k the motor had chances to rest and it went all the way without shutdown. If it shuts down on a regular basis you my need to limit the amperage with a USB cable or Cycle Analyst.
Gary
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Hi Roberto,
Is this an internal Magic Pie? If so its probably the "shut down when hot" system kicking in. It shuts down for about 5 mins then will go again. Try timing it to see how long before it goes again. I recall when I ran one pie it used to shut down 3/4 of the way to work. My rolling wieght with myself the bike and the trailor is over 400 lbs. I was driving it full throttle all the way on a gradual climb all the way to work and it was to much for the motor. Once I added a CA and limited the speed to 32k the motor had chances to rest and it went all the way without shutdown. If it shuts down on a regular basis you my need to limit the amperage with a USB cable or Cycle Analyst.
Gary
Hi Gary:
Yes is an internal controller Magic Pie, and unfortunetly is the version nº1, so I don't have way to change anything in the controller, since I don't have any usb cable.
You mention you added a CA, whats that?? A cycle Analyst? because I have one, and the maximum speed I achieve is 39km/h going downhil, and the maximum amp recorded in the cycle analyst is 42,23amp.
My weight is about 95kg ::)+30kg of the bike wiht the 2 baterries. I don't know if this is to much. When I am making the test I don't pedall at all, and I push it quite hard I may recognize, because I take all the hills I find, and most of the time on full throttle... :o
Do you know at what temp does the system shuts down? What amperage limit must I have to establish through the cycle analist?
Thanks
Roberto
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Is this an internal Magic Pie? If so its probably the "shut down when hot" system kicking in. It shuts down for about 5 mins then will go again.
Gary is right Roberto, the controllers were modified to include a temperature cut out to prevent the internal controller (and presumably the stator windings) from overheating:
As of today, 22/7/2009, the day of the eclipse, all GoldenMotor controllers have a new function to deal with the issue of regen braking burning out the controller while battery is off. Took 2 weeks for project AntiPyro to be completed. Thanks for your support!
The Controller will shut down automatically when a current than higher than a certain value in the controller. (Value to be confirmed)
GM is currently developing another function, a Temperature sensor. If the temperature of the controller goes above a certain value, the controller, again, will be shut down.
I think your original problem my be due to a fault with battery 1. Now you have the second battery connected, there is 50% less load on the original battery and the Low Voltage Cutoff is probably not being activated because of the greatly reduced load.
If you repeat your last ride with the second battery disconnected, I think you may find that your original fault will return again (total loss of battery voltage), before the controller's temperature becomes high enough to activate the automatic shut down function. :(
I don't think that disconnecting the BMS is a very good idea, as it is probably working correctly and cutting out due to the voltage of a faulty group of cell falling below their lower safe working limit under load.
Removing the BMS would allow the faulty cells to become even more drained, making their poor condition even worse. Also, using the battery without the BMS could cause irreversible damage to the other remaining good cells if they become overdischarged.
Alan
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Is this an internal Magic Pie? If so its probably the "shut down when hot" system kicking in. It shuts down for about 5 mins then will go again.
Gary is right Roberto, the controllers were modified to include a temperature cut out to prevent the internal controller (and presumably the stator windings) from overheating:
As of today, 22/7/2009, the day of the eclipse, all GoldenMotor controllers have a new function to deal with the issue of regen braking burning out the controller while battery is off. Took 2 weeks for project AntiPyro to be completed. Thanks for your support!
The Controller will shut down automatically when a current than higher than a certain value in the controller. (Value to be confirmed)
GM is currently developing another function, a Temperature sensor. If the temperature of the controller goes above a certain value, the controller, again, will be shut down.
I think your original problem my be due to a fault with battery 1. Now you have the second battery connected, there is 50% less load on the original battery and the Low Voltage Cutoff is probably not being activated because of the greatly reduced load.
If you repeat your last ride with the second battery disconnected, I think you may find that your original fault will return again (total loss of battery voltage), before the controller's temperature becomes high enough to activate the automatic shut down function. :(
I don't think that disconnecting the BMS is a very good idea, as it is probably working correctly and cutting out due to the voltage of a faulty group of cell falling below their lower safe working limit under load.
Removing the BMS would allow the faulty cells to become even more drained, making their poor condition even worse. Also, using the battery without the BMS could cause irreversible damage to the other remaining good cells if they become overdischarged.
Alan
I bought my pie on octuber 2009, and I hope they have the temp function, but what worries me is that now is not really hot around here we are about 20ºC, but in summer we achieve 45ºC, so I don't know, maybe the temp sensor is broken as well.
About the batery when I said I wanted to disconected even the bms, was to disconect the "batery pack" that is the battery with its BMS, but the batery left should be working with its own BMS.
I hope you are wrong this time with the faulty cells, because to know which ones are the wrong ones is a pain in the ass and because to repair it means spending money, and I don't like it!!!
I will go for a ride tomorrow morning, and make the diferent tests.
Thanks
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