Author Topic: thread size information please  (Read 15846 times)

Offline Andrew

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Re: thread size information please
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2011, 09:02:00 PM »
Yep, now i've just got a pack of M14 nuts with no purpose, I feel cheated. 

a problem shared is a problem halved!

Offline wattsup

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Re: thread size information please
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2011, 09:31:23 PM »
likewise
read twice,write once.

Offline Deville

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Re: thread size information please
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2012, 11:38:31 PM »
Sorry to bump such an old thread but does anyone know the axle nut size on a pro 901 rear? I was putting on some new rubber and stripped one side of my axle. I had a torque wrench on it set to 55lbs??? I don't understand how 55lbs can strip it but it's done now.

I guess I can re thread it and get a new nut but I've never really done this before. Can I just clean the threads and put a new nut the same size on or do I need to totally redo the threads and get a smaller nut?

Any advice would be great.

Offline atcspaul

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Re: thread size information please
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2012, 12:05:01 AM »
i have done this with other bolts not the magic motor ones. the easiest way I found is sae and metric are very close in size. find the sae nut that is just a hair to small to thread get the proper size die and re thread the axle.  then use the appropriate size nut for it and you should be all set. do not try to re thread with the nut. die's are not that expensive and most hardware stores you can buy just one die and not have to buy a complete tap and die set

Offline jbc@jcudney.com

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Re: thread size information please
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2012, 01:16:17 AM »
The thread size on my MPIII was 14mm with a 1.5 pitch. I went to the local auto parts supplier and found the the correct nuts there. I put them on backwards with the tapered ends out. You might check my earlier post on stripped axle on MPIII.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 02:01:36 AM by Bikemad »

Offline Deville

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Re: thread size information please
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2012, 04:04:05 AM »
Thanks for the fast reply guys, I ended up putting the nut on backwards like jbc@ did and it grabbed the thread good enough for now until I can get it fixed properly. I also marked the nuts and frame with a red permanent marker so I can monitor it closely if it decides to back off or move on me in the meantime.

I have lots of good thread under my torque arm and on the end of my axle so I have a few options that should only require cleaning the axle threads as best I can and getting a few original replacement nuts.

I would really appreciate your guys opinions on this if maybe one way is safer then another or something... My current setup on stripped axle side is like this ( Rear hub )... Bike dropout > tabbed washer > GM tourqe arm > axle nut.

So I figure I can either,
A: Clean axle threads as best as I can, and go Dropout > tabbed washer > new axle nut > tourque arm > then add another nut to hold torque arm. \this setup the torque arm covers the stripped section of axle.

B: Clean axle up and go Dropout > tabbed washer > torque arm > washer > washer > new axle nut. \ This setup washers cover stripped section.

C: I don't know.

D: Throw it in the gutter and get another.

E: Just redo the whole thread and get a new nut.

Appreciate any suggestions guys, thanks!
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 04:08:55 AM by Deville »

Offline Bikemad

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Re: thread size information please
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2012, 04:20:08 AM »
Does anyone know the axle nut size on a pro 901 rear?

According to the drawing the thread is exactly the same as the Magic Pies, M14 x 1.5.

It sounds as if Jack used some of these taper seat wheel nuts:



I don't know how difficult it will be to obtain longer ones, but the more thread they have, the less likely they will be to strip the threads when tightened.

Alan
 

Offline Deville

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Re: thread size information please
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2012, 05:23:07 AM »
Thanks Alan.

I'll pick up a 14 x 1.5 die tomorrow along with some new ( Preferably long ) nuts and see if I cant clean up my mess.

If that doesn't work what would be the most logical size to rethread the  14 x 1.5 to?

Thanks.


Offline jbc@jcudney.com

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Re: thread size information please
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2012, 04:47:17 PM »
Here's what I've done so far - The original bike had angled dropouts and a derailler that hung on the axle (a real pain), I stripped off all the spare parts and threw the frame away. I then purchased a CCM, full suspension bike with VERTICAL dropouts and a rear derailler NOT mounted on the axle. Then I cleaned up the axle with a 14mm, 1.5 pitch die and mounted the rear wheel with a rear torque arm and various spacers to get the nut off the damaged area of the axle. Various places have quoted between 32 - 50 ft/lbs of torque - I gave it 40lbs and so far it has held. If this arrangement doesn't stand the test of time, I will turn the damaged axle down to 12 mm and rethread @ 12mm and 1.5 pitch. I also have had a replacement axle on order for over a month now, hopefully it will arrive before this whole issue rears its ugly head again.

Jack

Offline Deville

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Re: thread size information please
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2012, 05:31:08 PM »
Thanks jbc,

This is turning into a real pain in the ***

I took the motor to a few local automotive places to see if they could just clean the threads, none of them have anything that will fit, I called some local auto parts stores and same thing. Looked around hardware stores but they mostly sell complete sets and anything that has that size is well over $140+ CAN

I'm thinking maybe I'll try a drive shaft shop or something but I'll have to drive across the city for that.

Anyways thanks again for all the input everyone, I'll take jbc's advice and torque to 40lbs max once I get this resolved. I'll also update if I find any alternate solutions not mentioned to help someone else in the future.

I wish GM would give us torque specs for these wheels instead of just saying "put them on really tight" unless I missed it somewhere?

Offline jbc@jcudney.com

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Re: thread size information please
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2012, 09:39:04 PM »
Try a motorcycle repair shop - that's next on my list of options. The die sets come on sale periodically at Canadian Tire for about $70. You're right about that "put them on real tight" comment. This kind of "cutesy-poo" nonsense is silly and maddening.

Jack

Offline Deville

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Re: thread size information please
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2012, 10:08:22 PM »
The biggest I found at Canadian Tire only had 12mm dies, so after spending hours locally ( to avoid driving across the city ) trying to get what I thought would be a standard die I ended up calling a buddy that works at an auto shop across town and he had a 14M 1.5 die.

We chased the threads and they cleaned up pretty good, but he didn't have any nuts he could give me. No problem, bolt supply house was only a few blocks away. So I get there and they didn't even have the bolt, nice " bolt supply house " that was.

I ended up getting 2 bolts for free at Acklands industrial so I didn't have any out of pocket expense except for my fuel and about 3 hrs of my time. Still a huge pain!

So I'm all set to put this thing back together, 40lbs max from now on. I think that should be the recommended torque cause I stripped mine at 55lbs so that's obviously way to much.

Jack, out of curiosity what did a new axle cost you?

Thanks again for all the help guys.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 10:11:02 PM by Deville »

Offline Deville

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Re: thread size information please
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2012, 12:45:28 AM »
Update:

Ok I'm starting to think I might have a "dud" axle. I rethreaded the stripped section, and got brand new m14 1.5 nuts. I set my torque wrench to 40lbs exactly, checked and rechecked again.

I'm not even tightening the lug up on the stripped section anymore as I moved my torque arm to the other unstripped side of the axle so I'm tightening up where the torque arm used to be on clean threads and it stripped again. I didn't even get the click to 40lbs and I can tell it's stripped. It just kept spinning and didn't get any tighter.

I stopped and set the torque arm to 30lbs and got a click, 32 click, 34 one 1/4 turn then click, 36 2 1/4 turns click, 38 3 1/4 turns no click.

So it stripped somewhere around 36 - 38 lbs

I put my other new nut tight against the stripped nut and managed to get it to 40lbs with both combined but now I know the next time I need to pull that tire I'm gonna have to deal with this again  >:(

Is it possible I got a bad axle, maybe lower grade steel or something? stripping at 55lbs I can understand but 36 - 38lbs??
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 12:49:59 AM by Deville »

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Tightening torque
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2012, 03:39:18 AM »
I have just been Googling torque figures, and for a low grade M14 x 1.5 nut the tightening torque is 79Nm (~58ft/lbs).

But this does not take into consideration the fact that the axle thread is incomplete due to the two flats which have no thread whatsoever:

According to my calculations, machining the flats will have actually removed almost 50% of the threaded section of the axle, therefore it would be a bit unfair to expect it to withstand the full recommended torque.

As half the thread has been removed, I would therefore suggest that the recommended torque should also be reduced by 50% too.
This would give a more realistic recommended tightening torque of just 39.5Nm, or 28.76 foot pounds.

As I mentioned in a previous post, a longer (deeper) nut will be able to withstand a much greater torque without stripping because the applied load is spread over more thread.

If a 10mm deep nut strips at just over 36 foot pounds, then a 20mm deep nut should withstand just over 72 foot pounds (97.61Nm) before it strips.

I must admit that I usually tighten my axle nuts by feel, because after 40 plus years of tightening nuts and bolts, I now have a pretty good "feel" for the correct tightness of wheel nuts etc. and often have more confidence in my own judgement than the accuracy of some torque wrenches that I have used in the past. ;)

I previously used a torque wrench to check exactly how much I had tightened my axle nuts up, in order to answer a similar question.
I positioned the torque wrench so it was just about level under its own weight and then slackened the nut. I then carefully retightened the nut until the released torque wrench was in the same position as it was before I slackened  the axle nut.
The torque required to tighten the nut back to the same position as before was ~80Nm (59 ft/lbs).

Unfortunately, I am unable to explain why your axle threads appear to be unable to withstand the higher torque that mine are tightened to, unless they had been weakened by over-tightening them initially.

Here is my preferred tool for tightening the axle nuts, a 7/16 Whitworth ring spanner:


I would expect a standard Magic Pie to exert a maximum torque of around 50Nm through the axle, and most of this torsional force would be counteracted by the dropouts and the tabbed torque washers rather than the axle nuts.

Theoretically, the two axle nuts should be able to withstand this amount of torque without the assistance of the axle flats and torque washers etc., provided they were both tightened to at least 25Nm.
I therefore feel that the 39.5Nm, or 28.76 ft/lbs tightening torque calculated above should be more than adequate, especially when combined with the axle flats in the dropouts, torque washers and an additional torque arm.

Alan
 
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 06:47:07 PM by Bikemad »

Offline jbc@jcudney.com

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Re: thread size information please
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2012, 04:51:55 AM »
Thanks Bikemad:

It sounds like my 40ft/lbs should be okay. I especially like the vertical dropouts on the CCM Static bike since I feel if the wheel does want to move it will try to pound up into the dropout without any lateral movement.  The torque arm should also encourage the axle to twist up into the dropout. Time will tell.

As to the cost of a new axle: Gary at GM Canada has not quoted me a price yet and the axle has not been shipped yet either. Once again, time will tell.

Jack