Author Topic: .. MP5 ..conking out ...from the heat ???  (Read 15278 times)

Offline diverdon

  • Confirmed
  • Bachelor of Magic
  • ****
  • Posts: 181
.. MP5 ..conking out ...from the heat ???
« on: August 28, 2023, 03:31:50 PM »

     Hello , Today my bike conked out ...again ..for the 2nd day in a row .. Thought I fixed it yesterday but looks like maybe not .. 30 minutes into a 40 minute easy slow 7-8 mph ride I do most every day ... Felt like the bike just turned off ... I could turn the battery off and back on and it would allow the thumb throttle to just work for a second before it would shut off again .. I petaled the  mile or so home ...not as much fun .. The problem showed every time I tried to use the throttle and I had an extra one from an old build ..Put it on and it works fine ...

       Today I went on the same ride and it conked out in about the same place ... Thinking now it might have something to do with the battery ... I put a voltmeter on the output and sure enough it shuts off power as soon as I hit the Thumb Throttle ....

     Anyone else had this problem ? Battery is 2-3 years old 52 volts 17 amp hours ..I'm pretty sure I have ridden when it was this Hot Before .. Kinda stumped ... Perhaps I will put the Battery in the Freezer for a few minutes and see if that "fixes" it ..

   Sorry this is so Long ..Just wanted to try and explain the problem .... First time in nearly 4 years I've had a problem and I think it's the Battery and not the MP5 ...

Offline diverdon

  • Confirmed
  • Bachelor of Magic
  • ****
  • Posts: 181
Re: .. MP5 ..conking out ...from the heat ???
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2023, 05:30:21 PM »


     Tried the freezer for 29 minutes to cool down the battery .. No Change .. I have a "smart" battery charger it can charge to 80 , 90 or 100 % ... I most always charge to %80 at 1 amp ..got it sitting on 1 amp now and I'm going to 100 % ... I have heard you need to "balance" your cells this way every now and then ... Maybe? ... I will report back ..The controller cannot turn off the battery ??? can it ? as that's what it seems like is happening ..shutting off when it gets a load on it ..

Offline Bikemad

  • Global Moderator
  • Professor
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,553
Re: .. MP5 ..conking out ...from the heat ???
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2023, 01:05:50 AM »
The controller cannot turn off the battery ??? can it ? as that's what it seems like is happening ..shutting off when it gets a load on it ..

Hi Don,

The controller cannot turn off the battery power, only the battery's BMS is able to do that.
It definitely sounds like a battery problem, but I don't think it is heat related, as it is more likely to be a weak cell or low voltage (unbalanced) cell that is causing the BMS to cut the power from the battery.

Charge it to 100% each time it is used over the next couple of weeks and see if it improves. If you have only been charging it to 80% each time, it could be that the cells are just very imbalanced.

I also suggest that you charge it for as long as possible and don't turn it off as soon as the green light comes on.

I have been using the same Hailong 48V 10Ah battery for over 3 years now and I typically have to charge it for at least 18 hours before the cells are fully balanced.

My charger is plugged into a mains power meter so that I can monitor the power being drawn as the battery charges:



The red LED indicator on the charger usually turns green after just 2~3 hours of charging (at which point the charger's cooling fan also stops) but the battery's voltage is only ~54.40V and the charger is still drawing ~13 Watts from the mains.
Over the next 15~16 hours the Battery's BMS slowly balances the cells and the power being drawn from the mains will gradually drop all the way down to ~1.0 Watt and the battery voltage will increase to ~54.54V.
Ideally, my battery's fully charged voltage should be 54.60V, but the charger's regulated output seems to be ~0.1% lower than it should be. ::)
When the power meter reads 1.0~1.1 Watts, I know that my battery is fully charged and the cells properly balanced, and then I can then turn off and disconnect the charger.

If your battery has only been 80% charged for several weeks (or even months) then the BMS would not have been able to balance the cells at all over this time, therefore it will probably take several weeks (or even several months) of long 100% charging to fully equalize the voltages of all of the cells.

However, if you have faulty or weak cells instead of low voltage imbalanced "good" cells that are causing the BMS to cut the power, then even with 100% charging, the battery is unlikely regain a large percentage of its original capacity.  :(

Alan
 

Offline diverdon

  • Confirmed
  • Bachelor of Magic
  • ****
  • Posts: 181
Re: .. MP5 ..conking out ...from the heat ???
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2023, 02:05:58 AM »

    Thanks for your help Alan ... You gave me some good points .. My charger is this thing from luna cycle ..it will charge automatically to 80-90 or 100 % and I can choose from between 1-5 amps ... I have been charging this pack to 80% a lot ..I try to not let it go below 49 volts ..It's the Haloing 52 volt 13 AH .. I think it's 2 1/2 years old ..With your tip I turned the charger back on I had it to 100% but your tip about letting it run is what I going to do .. It's taking 1/4 amp and I'm not sure but think the charger is going to shut off automatically ...

      I have the original 2 amp charger ..perhaps I should hook that up for a while ??
   Thanks Again for putting up with my problems ...Still I have never had a problem with the MP5 .. It's always been the battery or me ..the "installer" .. Thanks again ..sitting here in Florida watching hurricanes on either side of me .. Fun .. 

Offline diverdon

  • Confirmed
  • Bachelor of Magic
  • ****
  • Posts: 181
Re: .. MP5 ..conking out ...from the heat ???
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2023, 03:55:51 PM »

  Hello , I used the original 2 amp charger left it on 6-8 hours after the light turned green ... waited 2 hours and went for a test ride ... made the 40 minutes no problem last 2 days it would cut out at 30 minutes .. didn't want to push it to the regular 1 and 2 hour rides I do ..not today at 11 AM ..it's 88 and humid .. I REALLY don't want to petal against the wind in this heat "if" it gives out ...

    I will take your advice and do the balancing 3-4 more times ...How low should you take a 52 volt battery before recharging ...I figured 49 volts ..that's what I've been doing ... battery was really hot to the touch in the sun .. I never thought of it before ... I have a water resistant canvas cover I use and wonder if it make the heat worse ...left it off today and the black battery was sorta/pretty hot to the touch ... 

Offline diverdon

  • Confirmed
  • Bachelor of Magic
  • ****
  • Posts: 181
Re: .. MP5 ..conking out ...from the heat ???
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2023, 04:15:00 PM »


     Your Tip worked well ..started a 5.3 watts and was down to 0.7 over 6-8 hours ...

Offline diverdon

  • Confirmed
  • Bachelor of Magic
  • ****
  • Posts: 181
Re: .. MP5 ..conking out ...from the heat ???
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2023, 12:50:06 AM »

    Hello , Thinking I might need to start saving for a new battery .. I did the cell balance charge 3 times ..was on my way home this evening and it conked out again ... 52.3 volts showing on the handlebar digital voltmeter I have ... I can "reset" the motor by turning off and on the battery .... If I  use the thumb throttle VERY Gently it will work/run ... as soon as I push it a little it's like the battery just turns off ... I watched the voltmeter as I tried it a few times in the parking lot ...Battery conks out right at 50 volts ... For years I have taken it to 49 volts before recharging Now it seems I must recharge at 52 volts ... Gonna put the charger on overnight ..use the watt meter like you showed me ...Thinking it may be time to shop for a battery ...

Offline Bikemad

  • Global Moderator
  • Professor
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,553
Re: .. MP5 ..conking out ...from the heat ???
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2023, 12:00:36 PM »
Hi Don,

I seem to recall that some Hailong batteries needed to have the power switch in the On position while charging for the battery to be fully charged and the cells balanced.
It might be worth trying this on your battery to see if it makes any difference to the fully charged battery voltage.

Did you also charge it fully using the battery's original charger, and continue to charge it for several hours after the green LED had come on the last time you charged it?

When you next charge your battery, check that the battery voltage is going all the way to ~58.8V, and make a note of the battery voltage before you start your ride to see how much it has dropped since the charger was removed. My 48V battery will typically only drop 0.1V (from 54.54V to 54.44V) when it has just been standing for a few hours after a full charge.

It might also be worth visually checking the condition of the connector pins where the battery fits into the battery cradle for signs of burning/arcing, along with any other battery cable connections, as a poor connection/battery contact could also cause similar cutting out problems.

My lowest observed voltage on my 48V 13S Hailong battery was 37.91V when I initially checked its capacity by performing a full discharge until the BMS cut the power, and the stated cut off voltage was 36.4V (2.8v/cell). So I would expect your battery voltage to drop down to 41V before it cuts out if all the cells were still nicely balanced and in good condition.

My Hailong battery that I regularly use still has a lot more capacity than it did when I first received it over three years ago.
I purchased the 48V 20Ah battery from a seller on AliExpress, but the maximum capacity measured after the first few charge/discharge cycles was only just over 7Ah! (just 35% of its stated capacity).
As the battery was clearly not as described, I messaged the seller, who said my measuring method was not accurate and I should use a professional measuring instrument (even though the 2 Amp charger cut out after 4 hours 37 minutes when charging a completely exhausted battery instead of the expected 10+ hours!).
Alternatively, the seller said I could return the battery for a refund, but I could not send the faulty battery back to China (presumably at my own expense) as it is illegal to ship faulty lithium batteries, and I was not prepared to risk being heavily fined for doing so.
I opened a dispute with AliExpress, and they eventually stepped in and agreed to my request for a 65% refund of the purchase price as compensation for the missing 65% capacity.

After receiving the 65% refund, I continued to use the battery for approximately 6 months before I eventually took it apart to investigate the cause of the low capacity.
I soon discovered that it was a 13S 4P pack made up of 52x 18650 cells. As real 5000mAh (5A) 18650 cells did not exist, it was obviously never going to have had the stated 20 Ah capacity.

Whilst the pack was dismantled, I also noticed that the BMS was only rated for 350 Watts and 15 Amps, which was very disappointing as the battery was advertised as being suitable for 1500W motors, and with a 30A continuous and 60A peak current output.
I decided to fit a more suitable BMS (40A continuous and 60A peak) and after several charges I was able to fully charge the battery up to 54.54V, whereas the original BMS was only charging the battery to 52.7V.  ::)

Since the replacement BMS has been fitted, the highest capacity I have recorded on a single charge was 10.63Ah, and the battery gauge still showing 13% remaining, so it looks like the battery capacity might actually be ~ 12.8Ah, which is 82% more than its original 7Ah.  :)

Unfortunately, if your battery is cutting out because of a very weak cell group, a new battery will be the quickest and easiest solution.

Alan
 

Offline diverdon

  • Confirmed
  • Bachelor of Magic
  • ****
  • Posts: 181
Re: .. MP5 ..conking out ...from the heat ???
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2023, 01:32:22 PM »

   Hello Alan ... Thanks for the reply ..that was a lot of typing ...i do really appreciate it .. Interesting what happened that you ended up with a 7 amp hour battery ... I wouldn't take it apart ..well maybe after I had a new one ... once tried to build a battery from laptop computer batteries ...after the 2nd fire I decided not to mess with them any longer ... Ha
 
      This came with a 2 amp charger ... my "Research" said that charging to %80 would make the battery last longer ... So I bought this charger from Luna Cycles that charges 80-90 or %100 ...and at between 1 and 5 amps .. I charged to %100 every now and then ... Looking back this Fancy Charger shuts off at a specific voltage of which I can't remember right now ..Thing is , this battery may have never been fully charged with that charger ...
   
       I have been using the factory 2 amp charger to try to balance the cells and have used the home "Watt Meter" like you showed me ... It goes down to 0.5 when the battery is fully charged 58.9 volts. I have fully charged 3 times ...4 now and on the 3rd time I decided to let it go lower before recharging .. Then at 52 volts is when the problem happened ...again ... It's been on for 12 hours now and has showed full for 3 hours ... I'm leaving it on another 6 hours  .. Just to be sure ... I have a voltmeter on the handlebars and for a while I was using a chart to measure the % used on a specific ride ... That was years ago ... I'll keep trying this and putting aside $$$ for a new battery ...Got the 52 volt last time as it was $20 more than the 48 volt one ....
 
     P.S ...I am charging with the switch on ..it does seem to make a difference the battery voltage goes down when it's turned on ... This is a "hailong' (sp?) battery ..

     Thanks again for your help ..I'll let you know how it turns out .... Don

Offline Bikemad

  • Global Moderator
  • Professor
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,553
Re: .. MP5 ..conking out ...from the heat ???
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2023, 02:16:30 PM »
  P.S ...I am charging with the switch on ..it does seem to make a difference the battery voltage goes down when it's turned on ... This is a "hailong' (sp?) battery ..

If the voltage went down while the battery was on charge and removed from the bike, it does seem like your battery will need to be turned on while charging, as the drop in voltage indicates a noticeable difference between the charger's output voltage after it has been disconnected by the BMS and when it is reconnected directly to the battery again via the battery's power switch.
Your battery will hopefully charge back up to ~58.8V and should continue to try and balance the cell voltages until your wattmeter reading drops to around 1W.
My wattmeter never goes below 1.0W with a fully charged and balanced battery while the battery remains connected, but it will drop down to 0.7W if I unplug the charging plug from the battery while the charger is still turned on.

However, if your battery is currently being charged while it is still installed on the bike, the voltage drop may simply be due to the residual current draw of the controller and battery gauge/voltmeter and lights etc..  ::)
If you have another connector between the battery cradle and the Pie's wiring harness, try disconnecting this and see what difference it makes to the power reading shown on your wattmeter. If it drops back down to 0.7W then the voltage drop you observed will definitely be due to the controller and battery gauge etc..

It will be interesting to know what the outcome is.

Alan
 

Offline Bikemad

  • Global Moderator
  • Professor
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,553
Re: .. MP5 ..conking out ...from the heat ???
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2023, 03:12:01 PM »
I seem to recall that some Hailong batteries needed to have the power switch in the On position while charging for the battery to be fully charged and the cells balanced.
It might be worth trying this on your battery to see if it makes any difference to the fully charged battery voltage
.

This is what I remembered reading:



It looks like my memory was correct after all.  ;)

Alan

Offline diverdon

  • Confirmed
  • Bachelor of Magic
  • ****
  • Posts: 181
Re: .. MP5 ..conking out ...from the heat ???
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2023, 03:44:34 PM »


     Thanks for the Reply Alan ... Lots of Good Information ... I am charging it out of the bike and with the battery switch on .. Trying to remove any chance of mess ups ...

     I noticed in the past from charging on the bike that the Voltage would go down if I had the Battery on while charging ... So I always had the switch on when charging on the bike ...

   This "fancy" charger I have been using for years to charge to %80 cuts out at a certain voltage when charging to %100 ..I'm not sure if it EVER charged to %100 ... I can check that cut off voltage later ..

  For now I'm charging with the Original 2 amp charger and using the Home "watt meter" to monitor how much current the charger is drawing like you showes me  .... It's down to 0.5 ..Has been for hours ... I'm giving it 16 hours this time ... 8 hours after it's supposedly fully charged ..

   Posted a Picture above of the Digital Voltmeter on My Handlebars ...

 I was at 52 volts yesterday when it conked out .. I could reset the battery by turning it off and on ... Then gently pushed the thumb throttle and it would work ...but as soon as I gave it any regular throttle it would shut off again .... Thing is with the digital voltmeter I could see it turning off when it hit 50 volts ...weird ...

     For years I have been recharging when the voltage dropped to 49 volts with no problem ...Not it shuts off if I let it go below 52 volts ... We will see ... This is all I can do ... I guess ..

    Tried to find out when I bough this battery .. Have had the bike 4 years and replaced the battery shortly after I built it ... So 3 years plus ?? Just Guessing ...

     Thanks Again for all of your help ... Here's a Picture of my original MP 3? ... 25? years ago

Offline Bikemad

  • Global Moderator
  • Professor
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,553
Re: .. MP5 ..conking out ...from the heat ???
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2023, 10:50:14 PM »
Here's a Picture of my original MP 3? ... 25? years ago


Don, I'm not sure where the 25? years came from as your original Magic Pie (with the severely angled spokes and offset rim) is still less than 14 years old.

According to your forum posts, you must have purchased your original Magic Pie some time between the 25th and 29th November 2009 and you subsequently said, "Ordered the Kit and it came from China to my door in 1"ONE" week .."

I knew it couldn't be 25 years because I only became a forum member back in May 2009 and the Magic Pie was still in its prototype stage then. The Magic Pie was first released for sale on 20th October 2009, which was when I purchased mine.  ;)

Alan
 

Offline diverdon

  • Confirmed
  • Bachelor of Magic
  • ****
  • Posts: 181
Re: .. MP5 ..conking out ...from the heat ???
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2023, 01:25:40 PM »

    Thanks for the reply ... Seemed like 25 years ago ... Tried to use that kit on another bike (with suspension) had a smaller rim installed and it broke /bent spokes like crazy ruining it ... next I got a 500 watt "edge" (I think) for the front wheel ... rode it some and my physical condition (bad back) made it hard to get off and on ( I fell twice ) so I gave it to a friend and built this one I have now ...

      Charging the battery to %100 and riding it daily ...I'll check to see if it still conks out at 52 volts in a week or so ... For now it's not a problem ..Just need to know the lowest voltage I can let it go to ...for now that's 52 volts ...

     Thanks Again for all your help .. I wonder how many people you have helped on here ...TONS

Offline diverdon

  • Confirmed
  • Bachelor of Magic
  • ****
  • Posts: 181
Re: .. MP5 ..conking out ...from the heat ???
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2023, 01:43:15 AM »

    Looks like this battery is shot .. I have been charging it really fully to try and get the bad cell to come back 5-6 times I "balanced" the cells ..This last time I let it go a little lower and it's cutting out at 54 volts where it was 52 volts it would cut out at a week or so ago ... If I fully charge the battery it will still easily do any ride I do 25 miles Max ... Gonna budget a new battery for next month and hope it holds on until then ..

      Thanks for your suggestions the Trick of monitoring the charge with a home Watt Meter is a good trick ... Thanks Again ...Don