Magic Pie 5 - PAS not working

[Rebell]

Good Day All

I`ve got an Error on a 48V Magic Pie 5 internal controller Kit with an BAC-601 Display. Error mean, the PAS is not working at all.
I`m trying to use a PAS Sensor witouth a Cycle Analyst, should be possible.

First, I read only 4,2V between the red/black PAS Cable, with comes from the motor. After view researches it turns out, the minimum needed Voltage is over ~4.75V right?

If I disconnect the throttle, it jumps up to 5V but shown on the Display Error 2. Unit is not working. No Voltage differents if other Connectors will be disconnected (brake/display/Cruise Control).

Soldering a new throttle witouth Battery Led`s and Light button will cause the same Voltage drop.

Haha, now I was thinking im very clever and use a Voltage step up to generate and hold the 5V to keep the PAS Sensor working. Intressting result, the Voltage on the Display (Battery Status) will slowly filled up (?) and the throttle starts to struggle. PAS still not working, no error at all until Error 2 if the throttle is disconnected.
Programming a higher PAS Ratio doesn`t work eather.

There is a new PAS Sensor on his way.


At the moment I am completely confused. Can someone give me a kick in the right direction or tell me that I just make the job completely wrong :-)

Thanks for reading, sorry for my bad english and have a nice day
Best Regards

[Bikemad]

Hi andto the forum.

I`m trying to use a PAS Sensor without a Cycle Analyst, should be possible.

First, I read only 4,2V between the red/black PAS Cable, with comes from the motor. After view researches it turns out, the minimum needed Voltage is over ~4.75V right?

If I disconnect the throttle, it jumps up to 5V but shown on the Display Error 2. Unit is not working. No Voltage differents if other Connectors will be disconnected (brake/display/Cruise Control).

Soldering a new throttle without Battery Led`s and Light button will cause the same Voltage drop.

1) The PAS should definitely work without a Cycle Analyst.

2) 4.2V should be fine for the MP5 controller, mine drops to 4.23V with just the throttle plugged in, and 4.21 if I plug the pedelec sensor in as well.

3) Mine only jumps to 4.9V with everything unplugged.

4) The brakes, LCD display and cruise control/horn buttons do not draw current from the +5V supply, so the voltage reading on the +5V supply should not vary.

5) The lighting switch and LED battery gauge both draw their power from the battery supply, not the +5V supply. It is just the Throttle Hall sensor that draws power from the +5V supply.

I presume you have already tried changing the PAS level with the Mode button, as the default level is "0" which is no PAS.

Have you checked that the PAS is enabled in the software settings?

Hopefully the new pedelec sensor will cure the problem.



Alan
 

[Rebell]

You does a real good job Bikemad. Think I speak for all, if I say thank you.

Yes, PAS is activated by the USB Programmer. Voltage jumps up to 5.02V if throttle is disconnected. No differents by PAS Ratio or PAS level on the display.

Very good explanation my confusion is now gone. If I see it right, there are three possible problems left.

1. PAS Sensor not working (hopefully)
2. Internal controller error
3. A cable with interruption or bad soldered. Only can be the yellow one.

I try the new Pas sensor if arrived and will report the results.

Otherwise, if all fails. Is it possible to use a torque sensor with voltage output parrallel to the throttle?

Thanks again and have nice day
Best regards

[Bikemad]

Otherwise, if all fails. Is it possible to use a torque sensor with voltage output parallel to the throttle?

It should be possible to use a torque sensor with voltage output wired in parallel with the throttle but you may need to use a couple of diodes to prevent one unit from affecting the other. 

On my pedelec connector I have a reading of ~3V between the Black and Yellow wires which stays the same regardless of whether the pedelec sensor is connected or not.

If your Yellow wire was broken (or shorted to ground) it would read ~0V, and if yours reads ~0V, then I would say that the controller (or its wiring) is faulty. 

Alan
 

[Rebell]

Good Day

Goddamn, your right Bikemad. The Voltage is given on yellow/black, so no error.

Yesterday i`ve recived the new Pedelec Sensor and a half twist Throttle.
So I soldered the Throttle and works Great.

Joyful I tried now on the PAS Sensor.
Soldered together the small red led lights up every time the magnet passes. Work.
Voltage red/black and yellow/black reads  ~ +4.2V  and the yellow/black connection drops the voltage to 0 every time the magnet passes. Works, but the unit makes no sign to run.

By the way, if I hold the "- "Button from the Display, the unit should run in step-tempo right? I read a "PUS" text on the Display and nothing else.

I did not want to embarrass myself and tried to program the engine again with the p800 tool. It is noticeable to me that it is not possible to activate the PAS system. It is only possible to de/activate regen braking and reserve. Should here more possible? Wrong tool?

Thanks again and have nice day
Best regards

[Bikemad]

Joyful I tried now on the PAS Sensor.
Soldered together the small red led lights up every time the magnet passes. Work.
Voltage red/black and yellow/black reads  ~ +4.2V  and the yellow/black connection drops the voltage to 0 every time the magnet passes. Works, but the unit makes no sign to run.

As it also does not work with the new pedelec sensor it could be a controller issue. 
I suggest you contact your kit supplier and explain the problem.

By the way, if I hold the "- "Button from the Display, the unit should run in step-tempo right? I read a "PUS" text on the Display and nothing else.

I couldn't get the Push mode to work on my earlier MP4 version either, even with the "PUS" is displayed. 

I did not want to embarrass myself and tried to program the engine again with the p800 tool. It is noticeable to me that it is not possible to activate the PAS system. It is only possible to de/activate regen braking and reserve. Should here more possible? Wrong tool?

There are several versions of the Vector programming software, which version are you using?

• LBMC GUI V3.1.1 (original)
• Goldenmotor V3.1.1 (revised)
• V3.1.2
• V3.1.3(b14-0808)
• V3.2.0(b14-1112)
• V3.2.1(b15-0209)

These are the six versions I have, but I suspect there could well be more. 

Alan
 

[Standartuser]

Hi Guys,

I have the same Question here. In the Software is no Setting for PAS . When the connection between the Software and the Controller is given, there are just a few things to change, if you start the software before connecting the Controller, there are so much Settings listed, that would be interesting to change, but nothing is "free".. Is this not for custumer Using?


Another thing, I can change now the PAS level in the App from 1-5 and the PAS RATIO is very helpful, but I cant change the PAS Levels separately . In my Bafang BBS02 I can change the settings for each Level, Power and Kmh. this would be nice too.

And the most important thing...the THROTTLE valid Speed ! it can be changed, but not saved in controller. and I would like to have it.
Is there a Way to do it?

Best Regards

[Bikemad]

In the Software is no Setting for PAS . When the connection between the Software and the Controller is given, there are just a few things to change, if you start the software before connecting the Controller, there are so much Settings listed, that would be interesting to change, but nothing is "free".. Is this not for customer Using?

The programming software is used for several different controllers, but only the options available for the attached controller are available, but even then, not all of the options appear to work. 

Another thing, I can change now the PAS level in the App from 1-5 and the PAS RATIO is very helpful, but I can't change the PAS Levels separately . In my Bafang BBS02 I can change the settings for each Level, Power and Kmh. this would be nice too.

That sounds like a very sensible and useful option to have, but unfortunately it is not available with the GM controllers. 

And the most important thing...the THROTTLE valid Speed ! it can be changed, but not saved in controller. and I would like to have it.
Is there a Way to do it?

I have not been able to get the "Throttle valid speed (rpm)" to make any noticeable difference on any of my GM controllers, so I guess it may be a future function waiting to be incorporated into newer versions of the controllers. 

I don't even know how it is supposed to function, whether it is supposed to prevent the throttle from working above the set wheel rpm, prevent the throttle from working below the set wheel rpm, or whether it simply sets the maximum wheel rpm that the throttle can provide.

Alan
 

[Gipomad@libero.it]

Dear Bikemad,
I have a Magic Pie edge kit, with a PAS not working (PAS from golden motor)
on the PAS sensor I have 3 wires (black, red and blu), using a voltmeter I can read the following both pedaling either not:

- red  (positive) to black --> + 4,23 V
- red (positive) to blu --> +4,23 V
- blu (signal) to black --> 0 V (black and blu are shorted togheter)

is it normal that on the PAS sensor I have blu and black shorted?
thank you for the response

Guido

[Bikemad]

Hi Guido andto the forum.

The last time I attempted to measure the voltage output from the pedelec sensor signal wire (my signal wire was Green, so I measured between the Green and Black wires - not between Green and Red)

If no signal is being produced, it will read 0V between the signal wire and the ground wire, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are "shorted together".

The Black wire is ground (0V) and the Red wire is the supply (+5V).

I was unable to obtain any readings from the green signal output wire, because when I put the voltmeter probe on the signal wire, the load was too much and the PAS simply refused to work until I disconnected the probe.

I found it much easier to raise the wheel off the ground and slip the chain off so I could turn the pedals easily in either direction to check that the pedelec was working.
If it works when you turn the pedal backwards, the disc may need to be turned around on the pedal shaft so it faces the opposite direction.
If all else fails, you could always try remounting the sensor unit on the opposite side of the bottom bracket.

I also noticed that it seemed to work better if the magnet disc was positioned very close to the sensor unit (but not actually touching it).

I hope this makes sense.

Alan

[Tommycat]

To add a bit of context...

The PAS sensor is a hall sensor type device. This particular model is a "unipole" digital sensor that changes states when a certain polarity passes the sensor. This happens only during the time that an individual PAS sensor ring magnet passes close by the sensor. Often noted by some models with a red LED indicator on the housing. This ring with magnets can be internal to the sensor package or a separate plate.

When the hall sensor changes state, it's solid-state contacts short the signal wire to ground. Causing the electronic 3-volt signal provided by the controller to go to 0vdc, known in electronic terms to "go LOW". This is what the electronics of the controller, is looking for... the rapid on/off/on cycling of the PAS hall sensor signal as it passes the magnets in the ring. This verifies the crank is being turned, and in the correct direction so the motor is allowed to produce power.

- red  (positive) to black --> + 4,23 V
- red (positive) to blu --> +4,23 V
- blu (signal) to black --> 0 V (black and blu are shorted togheter)

is it normal that on the PAS sensor I have blu and black shorted?
thank you for the response

Guido

So the answer to your direct question would be... yes, it's possible they are shorted.  But what remains is for when, and why it isn't changing state.

On my pedelec connector I have a reading of ~3V between the Black and Yellow wires...

Depending on how you're testing.
I would first look to see if the controller is putting out the ~3vdc signal output on the sensor wire with-out the PAS sensor connected. (BLACK to YELLOW)
Then perhaps using a separate magnet with the sensor installed, pass by closely both polarities one at a time to see if you can get the state to change.
This may indicate the direction in which to pursue.


Regards,
T.C.