Author Topic: New Battery Specifications  (Read 18777 times)

Offline Bedmountain

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New Battery Specifications
« on: June 21, 2016, 08:48:09 PM »
Hi Guys

I just received a new battery from China. This one:

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Great-Triangle-electric-bike-battery-48v-20ah-Samsung-cell-lithium-ion-for-1000w-1500w-2000w-motor/32401868802.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.203.lhDhZT&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_8,searchweb201602_1_10037_10017_507_10032,searchweb201603_1&btsid=53664fc5-8fa4-46f1-be16-e6ccdf781989

The specs on the listing are:
1. Rated  continual discharge current : 43A
2. Max continual discharge current : 50A
3. Pulse discharge current : 70A
4. Capacity : 20Ah

The battery came with this label attached:



I've Googled it to death but I still don't understand the values on this label...
Is there anything on there that I should be concerned about? Is there anything that contradicts the specifications listed in the advert?

Cheers All

Offline Bikemad

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Re: New Battery Specifications
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2016, 09:40:06 PM »
Ben, that label is from a 400W 18V solar panel, not your battery!

It may simply be recycled packaging or it may have been deliberately used to get around the capacity restriction on shipping lithium batteries in case of a customs inspection.

I have seen batteries with incorrect voltages and capacities printed on their labels for this very purpose. ::)

Alan
 

Offline Bedmountain

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Re: New Battery Specifications
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2016, 06:25:15 AM »
lol - thanks Alan  :)

It was certainly deliberate - it was fixed to the outer packaging and the battery itself.

I suppose I better go get it off the roof then as it doesn't seem to have collected any magic juice in the last 2 days....

Offline Bikemad

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Re: New Battery Specifications
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2016, 12:56:41 PM »
The specs on the listing are:
1. Rated  continual discharge current : 43A
2. Max continual discharge current : 50A
3. Pulse discharge current : 70A
4. Capacity : 20Ah

Hi Ben,

I've been doing some research on that particular battery and I think it is highly unlikely to match the above specifications stated by the supplier. :(

If you check out this post on Endless-Sphere you can find more information about it.

Even if it has the stated cells, it will not have the stated capacity, as there is physically not enough room within those dimensions to accomodate the required number of cells, even without the BMS unit!

I tried various layouts using my CAD package but could only manage to fit around 108 cells maximum in the same sized space, and ~13 of those would have to be left out to allow room the BMS to fit inside:





Unless the physical dimensions are larger than the ones quoted, I reckon they will have used 91 cells (13 series sets of 7 paralleled cells).

If the cells are the stated 2.2Ah cells, this would only produce a maximum capacity of 15.4Ah instead of the stated 20Ah.
You can't have a capacity of 20Ah using 2.2Ah cells, it would either be 19.8Ah for 13S9P or 22Ah for 13S10P, but there definitely isn't room for 117 or 130 cells in that size package. ???

If your charger's voltage is marked as 54.6V, it will definitely be a 13S pack, but if it is marked as 58.8V it will be a 14S pack.

If it's a 14S pack, it will probably only have 6 cells in parallel blocks and the total capacity would then be just 13.2Ah, unless they have somehow managed to squeeze 98 cells and the BMS unit inside the stated dimensions, but I don't think that is very likely.

My biggest concern would be if they had used cheaper low power output cells instead of the stated "Samsung inr18650-22P 5C 10A high drain cells or LG 5C 10A high drain cells". If this was the case, the voltage would sag noticeably under heavy load and the pack could get very warm as a result.

Weaker cells do not appreciate having to work too hard and would be more prone to early failure, resulting in a greatly reduced battery lifespan.

I'd like to be able to say that the battery you received will meet all of the specifications stated by the seller, but I feel this is highly unlikely.

Alan
 
« Last Edit: April 11, 2022, 12:00:50 AM by Bikemad »

Offline Bedmountain

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Re: New Battery Specifications
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2016, 06:54:55 PM »
Thanks Alan

That makes for depressing reading  :'(...

I'm looking forward to it melting through the bag on my first climb...

Offline Bedmountain

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Re: New Battery Specifications
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2016, 09:14:21 PM »
Hi Alan

I just took some dimensions from the pack and they are quite different to the image posted in the listing.

listing/actual:
26cm/33cm
7.2cm/5cm
24cm/30cm
5cm/7cm
18cm/20cm

Does that fit me in a few more sub-standard cells   :D

Offline Bedmountain

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Re: New Battery Specifications
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2016, 09:56:12 PM »
I drew the battery with the actual dimensions and was able to fit 128 cells and a bms in :)



that would make it feasibly a 117 cell 13S9P pack at 19.8Ah (it charges to 54.6V so it's a '13')

I guess there is no way of knowing what brand the cells are without unwrapping the pack...

Offline Bedmountain

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Re: New Battery Specifications
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2016, 10:27:27 PM »
OK - so I had to see what the cells are....



I'm guessing a Samsung or LG cell would have their name on?

also 2000mAh and not 2200....

Any ideas what these are?

Offline Bikemad

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Re: New Battery Specifications
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2016, 11:31:14 PM »
That's a big difference in the dimensions, and with a slightly smaller BMS it looks like there's enough room to squeeze in 130 cells:



So it could actually be 13S10P 20Ah.

I can't find any information on those "YG" cells, but let's hope they are still high discharge cells even though they are not Samsung or LG.  ;)







Please let us know how it behaves during use.

Alan
 
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 11:27:46 PM by Bikemad »

Offline Bedmountain

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Re: New Battery Specifications
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2016, 06:28:02 AM »
I'll take the side off the pack later to check if there is 130 cells in there.

I have 5 days left of aliexpress 'buyer protection' so I will be testing out their refund process once I've given the seller a chance to explain why he's lied about the brand of cells used...

Offline Bedmountain

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Re: New Battery Specifications
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2016, 11:43:34 AM »
117 cells - so I have a 13S9P 18aH pack made from cells of unknown origin :)...


Offline Bikemad

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Re: New Battery Specifications
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2016, 04:50:06 PM »
That's very sneaky and dishonest using packing pieces instead of the other 13 cells which would have made it a 20Ah pack.
(Assuming the cells have the stated 2000mAh capacity).

They probably get away with this scam most of the time as not many customers are going to rip a new battery apart just to check what's inside.

It would not be easy to fit another 13 cells now (if you wanted to) as each cell has to be wired in parallel with each of the 9 parallel groups of cells spread throughout the pack.
It would have been so much easier to build a 13S10P pack correctly in the first place.

After causing you all this trouble, I hope you manage to obtain a decent refund from the scammer seller you bought it from.



Alan
 
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 06:56:07 PM by Bikemad »

Offline Bedmountain

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Re: New Battery Specifications
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2016, 10:40:22 AM »
Having an amusing dialogue with my Chinese seller at the moment....

The excuse for the non-brand cell 18aH 'mistake' is that the first battery they sent was held at customs and this 2nd battery was sent with wrong cells by accident :)

So far I've been offered the following options:

I can send them another $300 and they will send a Samsung branded 20aH battery this time - hmmm so I would have paid $734 for 2 batteries - the 2nd of which I can pretty much guarantee would be made the same as the first...

This is my favourite so far: - They will send me some PVC shrink so that I can make the battery look new again and then they want me to ship it to a UK customer for them - at which point they will send me a 20aH Samsung battery (at no extra cost to me!) - now that's a tempting deal - spending my time and money to scam another customer so that I can receive the item I paid for in the first place - lol

I'm not sure what happens when the Aliexpress dispute countdown ends in 4 days...

Offline Bikemad

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Re: New Battery Specifications
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2016, 07:13:45 PM »
Presumably the first battery was held up at Customs because (for some unknown reason) it didn't resemble a solar panel. ::)

Anyway, it's good to know they are at least replying to you and trying to come up with excuses and solutions, it's just a shame they can't come up with honest and acceptable ones!

It will be very interesting to see what the final outcome will be.  ;)

Alan
 

Offline Bedmountain

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Re: New Battery Specifications
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2016, 11:34:10 AM »
We finally agreed on a full refund (which has now come through) and I keep the battery...

Seems fair to me :)

Would have still rather had the battery pack I was expecting though...

I did take it for a test drive last week but the 100% regen snapped my rear dropout hanger before I could tell how it was performing - that was a fun 3 mile walk home carrying a 60kg bike.

What I have noticed is that it will only charge to 52V rather then the full 54.6V