[SOLVED] 1000w Magic Pie 5 or 48v LifePO4 battery might be broken

[Jimi-James]

***UPDATE: most of this thread is old and was helping me fix a Magic Pie III. Go to this post to see the current problem.

I set up my new kit the way it seems it should be, but it doesn't work at all. The first time I tested it, it worked, but pulling the throttle made me go slower, which made me think the wheel was on backwards (the cables were going out on the right side). I flipped it around so they're going out on the left and tried again on a full battery, multiple times, but now it isn't going at all, not even when I start pedaling before trying the throttle.

It might be broken, OR it might have something to do with my assembly. I managed to find this page and all of its related FAQ items: http://www.goldenmotor.ca/FAQ/questions.php?questionid=99
But, it's not enough help. That link doesn't tell me what I should DO with the extra wires--the ones labaled "+5V", "Ground (Battery -)", "Program Signal/Reverse", and "Pedelec Signal". Is it OK to just leave them hanging loose? And do I have to plug the wheel into a program on my computer to program it BEFORE it will actually work at all? In the hook-up picture, I see they're using PAS connectors to hook up to some weird donut-shaped thing that did not come with my kit. And if I do have to program the kit, how exactly do I get from the extra wires and plugs to my computer's USB port?

[Bikemad]

Hi Jim andto the forum.

From what you have said it is quite possible that the controller could well have been damaged by riding with the wheel running in the wrong direction and then applying the throttle.

I'm amazed that a obvious mistake like this was not noticed before actually riding the bike, but it's obviously too late for that now.

After you discovered the problem, was the motor was still trying to turn backwards when you applied the throttle?  (with the bike stationary.) If so, it may not be the controller. But if the motor stopped responding (trying to slow the bike down when the throttle was activated) while you were still riding it (before you realised the problem), then I would say the controller has probably been irreversibly damaged.

I presume the 3 LED lights on the throttle are still lighting up correctly?

If the motor was still working immediately prior to removing the wheel to turn it around correctly, it's possible that the problem is due to something else.

I suggest you unplug both of the brake switch wires from the harness connectors and raise the front wheel off the ground and see if it responds to the throttle. If it runs without he brake switches, try plugging them in one at a time to see which one was causing the problem.
If you are using the brake levers while they are not physically connected to the brake cables (perhars fitted in addition to an existing hydraulic brake lever?) then it is possible that the cable attachment point is preventing the lever from returning fully and keeping the brake switch closed.

Regarding the 8 unused wires (Lights, Horn, Pedelec and Reverse) If they don't have connectors pre-fitted, these wires should be individually insulated to ensure they cannot touch each other.

If you are just using the throttle and therefore didn't order the Pedelec sensor (the weird donut-shaped thing) you do not need to use the pedelec wires, but they must be safely insulated as previously mentioned.

If you need to program the controller, you will need to use the correct USB programming lead that plugs into the main harness connector on the MPIII along with the programming software that can be downloaded from the GM website.

Please let us know whether you can get the motor to work or not.

Alan
 

[RooGM]

I'm not an expert on these but when I built mine I was very paranoid about getting it the right way around as I knew that getting that wrong could cause damage to the electronics.  To be fair to the OP these kits are supplied with no instructions at all, so the only way we can figure these things out is by searching for photos and help online.  Alan is the ultimate source of knowledge but if he wasn't around, a lot of us would be lost.  GM China need to make more of an effort to at least provide a basic setup guide with the kits.  Even a simple exploded diagram would let people see which way around the wheel goes.

I hope you get it sorted and get riding soon.   

[Jimi-James]

I was also extremely paranoid about which side to put the wheel in. I did absolutely all the Googling and research in my power to avoid that mistake, and it was STILL not enough. That speaks volumes about how bad a job GM China did. I even was working on it at a bike shop with people who generally have good advice, and when I told them that it was backwards, they thought it was extremely weird that the RIGHT way around is having the cables come out on the left side. We were also all under the impression that it wouldn't be too harmful to just try an orientation and test it. None of us knew that could break the motor. That's a serious, serious flaw when you combine it with zero instructions.

The motor has never, ever worked with the bike stationary. The throttle has only done anything while I was pedaling, even when the wheel was backwards.
As far as I know, the motor didn't stop responding while I was riding it. I tried to use the throttle while it was backwards twice and then gave up, so if it stopped responding, it stopped AFTER I stopped trying. So, I guess it's more likely that the motor was still working prior to removing the wheel to turn it around correctly.
The LED lights have always been iffy. When I had it backwards, they seemed to randomly blink in and out and only really stayed on while the motor was actually going (i.e. when I was pedaling AND pulling on the throttle at the same time). Now, they never turn on no matter what I do, and yes, I've been running it on a fully-charged battery (maybe the battery's bad?).
The wires came pre-insulated. I'd have to get out some wire strippers to do anything with them.
What exactly does programming the controller achieve? Will I want to do that? If so, where can I find the correct USB programming lead? It didn't come with the kit.

I'll be able to test the throttle with the brakes unplugged soon and I'll get back to you on that.

[Bikemad]

If the LEDs on the throttle are not lighting up, it sounds like you are not getting any voltage from the battery. If the battery voltage is too low, it may not provide any usable voltage as the battery management system (BMS) would prevent it.

If you have the bottle mount battery equipped with a fuse, it is possible that the fuse may have blown.

If you have the 48V rack mounted battery you should have a reading of around 58V at the power outlet socket if the battery is fully charged.

If your charger has a switch to select the correct input voltage, make sure it is in the correct position to suit your mains voltage, as I'm in the UK, mine is set to 220V:



If you have a 110V mains supply and the charger is set to 220V (like the one above) your battery will need to be recharged completely with the voltage selector switch in the correct position.
You can use the tip of a pen or a cocktail stick etc. to slide the switch to the correct position 

If the battery is charged properly but still has no output it is probably a bad connection inside the battery or a problem with the key-switch contacts.

Once we've established that the battery has the correct voltage output we can hopefully move on and see if there are any other problems.

If you don't have any battery power you mustn't expect the motor to run.

Alan
 

[Jimi-James]

The battery was totally in the wrong setting. I'm in the States, and it was set to 230V. I switched it over to 115 and let's see tomorrow if the motor survived all my mishaps.

[Bikemad]

If the battery has not been supplying power then hopefully the controller will be OK.
The resistance force that you experienced when opening the throttle must have been powered by electricity generated from the motor windings, not the battery.

This would also account for why the battery light only lit up while you were riding as and power for the controller and LEDs would have been generated by the spinning motor.

Let's hope that everything starts working properly when the battery has been properly charged.



Alan
 

[Jimi-James]

Alright, with a fully charged-on-the-right-setting battery, still no dice. I plugged it in and got absolutely no LED lights, ever. The throttle also didn't work, even when I unplugged the brake cables. Looks like the battery's dead. It was probably DoA, since it never worked, even before I had the wheel backwards (I tested it numerous times before I did much with any of the parts, and assumed it didn't work because the wheel had to be moving to work at all. I didn't know it should actually just move when I tell it to (what I was hoping for the whole time and expecting) until you said that in this thread). I'm going to open a dispute through PayPal and get the money back to buy a new one, and post back about whether anything else is still broken.

[Bikemad]

If you have the 48V rack mounted battery you should have a reading of around 58V at the power outlet socket if the battery is fully charged.

Have you checked the voltage at the battery output terminals with the key turned fully clockwise to the on position?



(Pushing the key and turning it anticlockwise just releases the locking pin).

I would also check the voltage at the charging port which should be the same as the output measurement.
If the voltage is correct at the charging port but not at the output terminals, it is probably due to a poor soldered connection or a faulty key switch contact.

I had a similar problem which turned out to be the contact plate coming loose on the rear of the keyswitch:



The cables soldered onto the end cover were pulling the fixed contact plate away from the moving contacts.



I pressed the end cover back in fully and then bent the wires more tightly at the switch end to make sure the wires were no longer trying to lever it off again and I have not experienced any further problems with the switch since this was done.

Mine was an easy fix and was a lot quicker and cheaper than sending the battery back.

Alan
 

[Jimi-James]

I'll let that be plan B, as I don't have easy access to a volt meter and I don't know how much they'll be willing to refund me if I took the battery apart. I'm in college, and buried in work at the end of the quarter, so it would actually be extremely hard to get this battery to a meter and back. I think it's good enough evidence that I'm getting no LEDs. I didn't know it has to be fully clockwise, but luckily, it's only ever been fully clockwise when I tested it, because I wanted it to be locked to the rack anyway.

[Bikemad]

I think it's good enough evidence that I'm getting no LEDs.

If the ground wire inside the throttle had come detached, none of the LEDs would light up, and the throttle wouldn't work either, so it isn't necessarily the most reliable way of testing a battery.

I'd much rather spend 30 seconds checking it properly with a voltmeter to be 100% sure, but that's just the way I am.

Alan
 

[Jimi-James]

Yeah, but for me, it isn't 30 seconds. It's an entire day lugging the battery around, and sacrificing a few hours I would've spent on homework asking around for a voltmeter and making sure I'm using it properly. For me, it really is easier to just get a new battery and see if it works.

Thanks for the heads-up about how it might not be the battery, though. I'll have to test those next if it still doesn't work.

[Davidmnz]

Multimeters are cheap. Buy one from your local electronics hobby store.

[Jimi-James]

Again, college. This bike is my way out of a life where going into town is actually a pretty tough thing. After I get the whole electric set-up working, then it wouldn't be too big a pain to go to my local electronics store and buy a multimeter. Dat catch-22.

[Jimi-James]

Hey, it's been a while. Remember me?

That last attempt went very badly. Some parts came dead, I made some mistakes, and there were no good instructions, and honestly from what I've seen of a normal Magic Pie, I think the Chinese branch of this company gave me the wrong product. They've also been generally unhelpful, unprofessional, and nonresponsive. I'm going to see what I can get refund-wise from PayPal, because I really did just get shorted over $1000 by incompetency, defective parts, and what I can only think by now is endless "we'll help you; just wait" stalling from somebody who either doesn't know what he's doing or is too busy to do a decent job. This thread was during a very tough time in my life in which I had almost no free time, and then I spent the next 2 months (until now) actually having no free time.

But now, I'm back with a freshly shipped battery and wheel, this time the Magic Pie 5 instead of 3, and this time from the much much much much much much much much better Canada branch of this company (which I didn't know about when I first bought that Pie 3). However, I'm having more problems.

I've gotten further with the battery than last time. Last time, the charger's light would ALWAYS be green, which I thought was normal, but with this new battery and new charger, whenever I plug in the battery, it turns orange and starts making noise, waits a few seconds, and then turns back to green and goes silent. And when the battery first got here and got plugged in, it stayed orange and noise-making for a good 2 hours. So, I think it had to charge a little and now is fully charged. I think that part actually *works* now. But on this new wheel and new battery, I'm not getting any LED lights and the throttle isn't doing anything. This time, I opened up the front of the battery and checked for that problem Bikemad had, and I don't have that problem. So, ether the battery's broken in some way I don't know about, the wheel's broken, or, what I think is the most likely reason: I didn't connect the cables to the battery properly. I've never had to deal with loose, exposed wires before, and I don't have a soldering gun (or anything better than a knife and electrical tape) on me right now, so all I could do is tie them together. I'm thinking I probably did that wrong.

Soon, I'll have access to a soldering gun, and I'm trying to get a hold of a multimeter, so I'll know a lot more about this problem soon, but I'm making this post in the meantime in case anyone has more ideas of what may be wrong.

EDIT: I was doing something wrong. It's all working.