Author Topic: Spokes and regen questions  (Read 7245 times)

Offline Juggler

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Spokes and regen questions
« on: May 20, 2014, 06:08:14 AM »
Hello!
I guess I have to reply here initially. 8)
I'm MP III with 48V10Ah owner and have several questions, specifically to the MP III spokes thread. Mine motor came with 13 gauge spokes which come loose after about 50kms after trueing. And I'm not sure that 110mm is the correct length to order them. Also I have questions about regen breaking performance and battery safety and very strange 120% setting in PC config for MP.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 07:51:15 AM by Juggler »

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Spokes and regen questions
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2014, 02:58:10 PM »
Hi andto the forum.

All spoke will settle in a bit and loosen when the wheel is first used and this can be a real problem if the spokes were not very tight to start with. I tighten my spokes nice and tight and have not had a problem with loose (or broken) spokes even when I was transmitting over 4kW of power through them!

All of my Magic Pies' spokes are fitted with their heads on the inside of the flanges, as this makes the wheel much stronger for handing lateral forces, and because the spokes are also much better supported against the flange, this really helps to prevent the spokes from reshaping themselves at the elbow which is probably the main reason why they become loose in the first place:



Alan
 
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 04:32:11 PM by Bikemad »

Offline Juggler

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Re: Spokes and regen questions
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2014, 05:31:45 AM »
Hi andto the forum.


1) About spokes:
Thanks Alan, I've seen your replies. My bike mechanic told me to rebuild the wheel the same way as in your photo when he first saw it. But my weight is the problem possibly, not only torque.
What I'm thinking about is to replace spokes with 3mm ones instead of 2.3-2.5mm stock spokes. Also I think about replacing the rim with MTX-33. MTX-33 is affordable very strong rim usually used for DH/dirt so I hope it will handle all the weight. But I've read very strange things in goldenmotor.ca FAQ. It states that factory 12gauge spokes were replaced with 14gauge spokes. It means they replaced thicker and stronger spokes with thinner and weaker ones. Why? Also, my wheel factory spokes are 13 gauge for some reason. And they coming loose pretty fast, maybe because I ride not only on flat good roads, but forest pavements etc. I do not dirt/jump/downhill just regular riding. My mechanic thinks my spokes just lengthen under heavy loads.
And I'm thinking about replacing rim and spokes with 3mm. But I don't know will they fit into motor and into rim. Also sizes are my great concern. I have options to choose and the closest one I measured is 110mm (Gary measured the same size AFAIR).

2) About regen - I have the same "symptoms" as in this thread: http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=5246.0
My regen is not noticeable until I set 90% of regen and trying to stop from about 40kph. Only in this case I have feeling that bike is braking a little using regen. And what are the 120% values are for? Which is the long term battery safe regen? 50%, 70%, or it is safe to use 90% or even 120%?

3) About amperage - By the way, I've seen many post here and on ES forums which are the best values for Amperage for latest MP III version.
Some ppl states that MP III contoller never draw more than 25A continous, some state that it can draw up to 35A continous. Some say that you can set 100A continous and it will not draw more than 30A continous in any case. Factory setting was 30A. And peak amperage is good question too. GM official sites states that it is bad for battery health to draw more than 50A in peak. While factory setting for MP III controller is 70A. Also there are lot of info that confirms 30A-40A is peak value for lifepo4 batteries. And some ppl say that you can set as much as 100A peak and motor will not draw more than 40A peak in any case. I don't have cycle analyst or any amperage tools so I have to rely on others ppl suggestions. In short which are best and safe values for continous and peak amperage for MP III with stock internal controller and stock 48V 10Ah battery, I want the most from my wheel and battery but do not want to go higher than specs to shorten its life cycle.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 04:31:46 PM by Bikemad »

Offline Hastings

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Re: Spokes and regen questions
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2014, 07:04:28 AM »
I had the same problem starting out . It is really a pain to have to take away cabling and respoke.
Today this does not happen very often as I : have applied a weak threadlocker and  I keep tension high and even. If there is a slack at one spoke it will eventually  lose its head or just unscrew.

Offline Juggler

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Re: Spokes and regen questions
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2014, 10:58:47 AM »
I had the same problem starting out . It is really a pain to have to take away cabling and respoke.
Today this does not happen very often as I : have applied a weak threadlocker and  I keep tension high and even. If there is a slack at one spoke it will eventually  lose its head or just unscrew.

It depends on the condition of the road surface , bike+biker weight I assume. You say it doesn't happen very often. Exactly how often it happen with threadlocker? What is your bike+biker weight?
Mine bike+biker weight is around 150kg/330lbs, I'm afraid it is too much for stock rim and spokes when you ride in forest pavement with rocks.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 12:23:17 PM by Juggler »

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Spokes and regen questions
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2014, 05:15:59 PM »
1) Spokes
The factory fitted spokes are 110mm long when measured from the inside of the elbow:


But if you are going to fit an MTX-33 rim you will need to measure the internal diameter of the new rim. If it is more than 2mm larger than the GM rim you may need to use longer spokes.

For example, if the internal diameter was 10mm larger, you would need spokes at least 5mm longer than the existing ones.

The threaded end of the spoke should ideally end up just below the head of the nipple when the spokes are properly tensioned:

You might also need to add a bit extra as the riveted holes will not allow the nipples to be pulled as far into the rim.
To calculate the additional length you will need to measure the length of a nipple, and then insert it into the rim and measure the length of the nipple which is still protruding. Add 1mm to this measurement (to allow for stretching under tension) and then deduct it from the overall nipple length to determine the additional length of the spoke that should extend inside the rim.

So if the nipple is 16mm long, and only 10mm sticks out of the rim when it is fitted, you would deduct 11mm from the original 16mm to determine that the spoke needs to have at least 5mm of its overall length hidden inside the rim.

I much prefer to ride with thinner spokes and would even use 14 gauge spokes if it wasn't for the large holes in the hubs. The thinner spokes have more give in them and are therefore better at absorbing impact forces instead of simply transmitting them directly between the rim and hub.

A correctly fitted quality spoke should be more than adequate for most hubmotors, there should be no need to increase the thickness of the spoke diameter.

I know its in the uk, but Graham @ www.tillercycles.co.uk will cut custom spokes, payment by PayPal and I guess if you email him, he will tell you if he will send to Sweden.......

Go for the Sapim 13/14g strong spokes....very strong (1400N/mm2) and butted...rated for 1.6 million revolutions.



If there is a slack at one spoke it will eventually lose its head or just unscrew.

If your spokes are all breaking on the elbow section like this:

it's because the spokes are failing due to metal fatigue caused by the constant flexing of the elbow as the spokes are not correctly supported at the flange end.

I suggest you read the following posts to find out why this happens, and how to prevent it from happening again:

Why spokes break.

The best way to prevent spokes from breaking.

2)Regen
The regen setting will ultimately be set to suit the preference of the rider. If regen is too strong you simply reduce it and vice versa. I have mine set to max because I have a lot of steep hills and I don't usually go too fast because I usually have the dog with me and I try and keep at a pace that suits her without having to wear out by mechanical brakes (and rims).

Unless you regularly brake at very high speed you are unlikely to be pushing too much regen current into the battery, especially with a 48V battery.


3)Current Settings
Unless you definitely need to keep the output within legal limits I would set them as high as they will go.
I think 30-35Amps is probably the most that will be drawn from the battery, even though the controller is set to its maximum (70Amps is as high as my settings will go).
The battery's BMS should automatically prevent excessive current draw and keep it within the battery's output capability, but if you find that it occasionally cuts out, it might be worth reducing your current settings slightly until the cutting out is eliminated.

My original Magic Pie would draw a maximum of 20Amps before I modified the shunt on the controller, which tripled the power to around 60Amps.  It ran very nicely at this level for almost ten months until I tweaked it a bit too much and eventually blew the controller.



But I can confirm that is was a lot of fun while it lasted. ;)

Alan
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 04:31:27 PM by Bikemad »

Offline Hastings

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Re: Spokes and regen questions
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2014, 06:06:01 PM »
Since 2 years I have treaded from outside in. But I will definitely start using washers. My weight is 100kg. The cycle is around 30kg. My record is 10 spokes in a year (pre tread lock).Now I loose 3/year also I check tension every three weeks.
I am about to byild a lighter bike with a Smart Pie