Author Topic: Intermittent Throttle Fault  (Read 14341 times)

Offline Provo

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Intermittent Throttle Fault
« on: October 01, 2012, 05:12:35 PM »
Hello,

My name is Zach.

I have been lurking on this forum for some time now doing research about the mp3 and deciding on whether it was well suited for me or not...

I recently purchased a Magic Pie 3 kit and have used it about three times without a hitch (and I must say: amazing build and design. I am really overly satisfied with price point and performance... Until this (keep reading).

I now have a major problem and am quite confused:

This morning I plug in my Magic Pie 3 equipped bike to my 48v battery, and the thing basically takes off at 400w (not exaggerating saw the reading on my cycle analyst)!I managed to lift the back wheel fast enough to not let it pull it away, but I had to literally put it against a concrete wall and have it do a burnout for 3 seconds as I reached over to immediately unplug the battery pack!(later thought laying down may have been better but I had to think fast at that moment... and was not sure if the wheels would still touch the floor as I have never laid it down.) This was my worst nightmare and I cannot believe it has actually happened! It wasn't an immediate 400w though. At first I plugged it into the pack and noticed it was twitching or slightly moving every now and then, maybe 5/10 watts. I observed it's unusual behavior for about 2 minutes and figured it was nothing serious so I started getting ready to get on it when it took off all of a sudden!

This is the fourth time I have plugged it in and I was planning on doing a long trip today and am now extremely confused. Everything is brand new, and I have rode it successfully for about 20km three times without a problem, including going up hills at 1200w and leaving it outside unattended while plugged in for hours.

So first thing to comes to mind: Yesterday I rode in moderate rain (no problems during the ride).

Any ideas?

This is the setup: 48v 20ah lifepo4, Magic Pie 3 (26") with internal (included) controller, thumb throttle. Cycle analyst (but not really relevant I guess as it is not controlling anything.)

Worth noting: When I used the ebrake/regen it cut the motor (as it should I guess), as I let go of it though immediately the motor takes off intermittently (0 to 10watts in short less than one second bursts at irregular intervals) or full 400w at times, but again it would immediately cut any wattage the second I used one of the two ebrake levers. Also if I used the throttle, even slightly, it would not surpass the input I was giving it (stable when using throttle normally). Only when everything is at rest this takes place.

Is there any warranty covering this type of issue? I bought it from goldenmotor.ca about a month ago.

Please help!

Much love.

Offline GM Canada

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Re: Intermittent Throttle Fault
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2012, 12:43:55 AM »
Hi Zach,

A few simple things to check is..

Is the throttle sticking open? Sometimes with thumb throttles if they are in a bend on the bars or on to tight they get sticky.

If that I s not it, try pulling the throttle plug and ensure there are no bent pins and all pins are straight and mating properly when plugged in. Do the same with the 8 pin plug at the motor.

If that doesn't resolve it then I see you are my customer. Please create a support ticket at www.goldenmotor.ca/ticket

Gary

Offline GM Canada

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Re: Intermittent Throttle Fault
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2012, 02:26:15 AM »
One more thought I just had was to check your wire harness. There are two wire harnesses. one has white 1 2 3 4 numbers on it the other is yellow 1 2 3 4 numbers. If you mix the throttle of one colour with a wire harness of another colour disaster can strike. Please ensure the 1 2 3 4 on you harness match the colour of the 1 2 3 4 on your controls.

Gary

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Intermittent Throttle Fault
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2012, 02:42:11 AM »
I had my GM thumb throttle stick at about 1/3 throttle twice.  That gave a thrill similar to the experience you mentioned.

TTFN,
Dennis 

Offline truly_bent

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Re: Intermittent Throttle Fault
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2012, 12:08:47 PM »
A wire break, as Gary suggests, might result in a floating throttle input at the controller. Typically, in control systems, analog inputs have a high input impedance and are not grounded through a resistor. A floating input is susceptible to any stray field - static even.

I see from the MPIII wiring layout (http://www.goldenmotor.com/e-Bike-DIY/MP3%20SmartPie%20Wiring%20Layout.jpg) on the far left side, is a two conductor cable with no label, except to show battery connections. This is most likely the controller board supply.

What i'd suggest is that you interrupt the positive lead (+ red) with some type of toggle switch (low amps) that you can easily reach from the seated position. This would allow you to be in control of the beast before you power up the controller board. I've done that. I turn it off before dismounting too.

Jeff
And much love back at ya. Not enough of that stuff around. :)
« Last Edit: October 02, 2012, 12:10:52 PM by truly_bent »
Burley Canto recumbent w/ MP II, Lyen 18FET controller, 48V 20AH LiFeP04, Cycle Analyst, and 4 pounds of zip-ties

Offline Duck

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Never fear... Duck is here... :-)
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2012, 02:16:43 PM »
Hey bud, I recently got stationed in Germany where it seems to rain quite often and have had the EXACT SAME PROBLEM...

What is going on is that the twist throttle IS NOT WATER PROOF... When you get a bit of water in it, you will have this problem. It will go away as soon as it dries out. There are two screws in the side of the housing that if you take them out you can open it up just slightly to allow extra air inside to speed up drying, but is not necessary as mine dried out in about two days. Now I just put a paint ball gun sock (the one that goes over the paintball gun barrel and has an elastic cord attached) over the throttle when I leave it outside to keep the water from setting in. It attaches/removes quite easily and can be purchased at almost any paintball supplier for under $5.

~Duck
Everything is better with more horsepower!

Offline Quiro

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Re: Intermittent Throttle Fault
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2012, 06:39:05 PM »
Hi,

I have a MPII and I got the same problem. The bike was running just when I turned on. My problem was bad connection in the wire with the 8 pins has Gary says. I got a new cable and now is running with out problem.

Quiro

Offline Provo

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Re: Intermittent Throttle Fault
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2012, 10:33:56 PM »
thanks for all the replies I really appreciate the advice.

Good news and bad news.

Seems it was moisture water in the throttle pin after all so I dried it out and everything was working flawlessly!

I managed to make my longest trip ever on a bicycle yesterday: 95km using an average of 7.3wh/km!

Bad news: I was riding back home today (5 minutes ago) and with about 60km left something happened. Haven't really troubleshooted yet as I am sitting on the side of the road. All I can say is this:
Battery pack is fine, 52v and around 13ah left (voltage is from cycle analyst that is still functional)
The thumb throttle and the regen levers are unresponsive.
All three lights are on on the battery indicator integrated with the thumb throttle (yellow red and green are on steady)
Motor housing and controller were just slightly above ambient temperatire at the time of the mishap (it has gotten much warmer on other rides).

Heres how it happened:
I was going about 30km/h and had been for about 15 seconds when I felt the throttle simply let off. The motor was not getting any more power... So I immediately pulled over and made sure that the throttle was indeed having no effect (which was confirmed.) I then pedalled up to about 20km/h to see if regen was functional and it was not. Then I tried unplugging and re plugging the throttle pin and it worked! So I took off again and had the same problem about 35 seconds later.

And here I am now writing this post from my mobile phone on the side of the road waiting for a lift from someone who lives quite far...

Will update later tonight!

Had a blast on my first ride though... Wow what a machine!

Much peace and love!

Offline Provo

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Re: Intermittent Throttle Fault
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2012, 01:20:14 AM »
So any ideas?

 I will check the 8 pin as Gary has suggested...

I know there is power available within the mp3 system as the integrated battery discharge level indicator alongside the throttle is lighting up (all three colors though all at once...).

Much love

Offline Duck

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Re: Intermittent Throttle Fault
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2012, 06:39:24 AM »
The throttle might be bad... The only thing I don't like about the throttle is that there is a high voltage wire in it for the battery indicator and with it not being water proof you might have had some arcing inside there... I have been inside my twist throttle and it is not very high quality and things are not protected very well... All 3 lights shouldn't be lit up at the same time, so something is definatly wrong in the readout circuit. It is also possible that you could have had your 48v pack arc over to the Throttle Signal wire which is 5v MAX. Without another throttle it will be hard to tell if you burned out the controller or not...

Sorry for your misfortune Provo...
Everything is better with more horsepower!

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Intermittent Throttle Fault
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2012, 01:45:59 PM »
All 3 lights shouldn't be lit up at the same time, so something is definatly wrong in the readout circuit. It is also possible that you could have had your 48v pack arc over to the Throttle Signal wire which is 5v MAX. Without another throttle it will be hard to tell if you burned out the controller or not...

Duck,
All three light should be on if the battery is fully charged. As the voltage starts to drop, the top LED will be the first to turn off.  With continued use, the middle LED will eventually go off too. The red LED normally remains lit right up until the battery's BMS shuts off the power if the battery voltage reaches the Low Voltage Cut-off point.

If the voltage rating of the throttle unit does not match your battery, you may find that all three LEDs stay on continually, or only the red LED lights up, depending on whether the throttle voltage rating is higher or lower than the battery.

Hi andto the forum Zach,
I would first try unplugging the two brake switch wires from the front connector to see if it makes any difference. If the throttle then works correctly, the fault could be due to a faulty brake lever switch or its wiring. Plug the brake connectors in one at a time to determine which one is causing the problem.

Another possibility is the wires on the throttle can be damaged if the cable is too tight and gets pulled too much when the handlebars move fully from side to side.

You can perform a simple test which will bypass the control harness, brake switches, throttle and cruise controls and simply checks the motor, controller and battery circuit by disconnecting the main control harness and then bridging two throttle contacts with a piece of small diameter wire, I used a reshaped paper clip as indicated here:

 


Don't force the wire into the sockets as this can open the contacts up, resulting in a poor contact with the pins when the the main harness plug is refitted, you only need to touch it against the two contacts (with the battery turned on first) to hopefully make the motor run at full speed, confirming that the motor, controller and battery are all OK.

To avoid accidentally shorting out the wrong sockets, and causing possible damage, you can place a piece of masking tape (or something similar) over the other sockets to ensure the wire can't accidentally be poked into the wrong hole.

As it states on the diagram, make sure the bike is secure with the wheel raised off the ground before you turn the power on and insert the wire and keep hands and loose wires etc. safely away from the wheel and tyre!

If it doesn't run during the above test, I would say the controller or motor harness is definitely faulty and will need to be replaced. :(

If it runs at full speed when the wire makes contact, the motor is obviously fine, but it doesn't rule out the possibility of an intermittent fault with either the controller or motor wiring harness.

Another test which only bypasses the throttle control can be performed without disconnecting the rest of the wiring to confirm that the throttle +5V supply and signal connections on the front harness are also OK:



If the motor runs with the paper clip, but not with the throttle, it is most likely to be a faulty throttle unit.

Please let us know what you find.

Alan
 
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 09:41:41 PM by Bikemad »

Offline Provo

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Re: Intermittent Throttle Fault
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2012, 05:26:50 PM »
Hello and thanks for the input duck and Bikemad!

Bikemad thank you so much for the detailed images and testing methods, so happy you could provide this!

So first I tried to run the motor with only the throttle cable plugged in and nothing happened...

So I proceeded to your first test and unfortunately the result was nothing...

The second test yielded the same result: no activity.

I have already opened a support ticket with Gary from goldenmotor.ca. I am really sad! I was just beginning to have fun with the living bicycle...

Does this guarantee a faulty wire harness/controller?

Much love and thanks again I really appreciate all the info.

Offline Provo

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Re: Intermittent Throttle Fault
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2012, 05:42:41 PM »
Also if there is any other testing procedures I can complete I would gladly do it and would really appreciate the info.

I have all tools needed to take apart the controller and whatnot including a digital multimeter for further testing.

Much love

Edit:

I have been communicating with Mr. Salo from golden motor Canada and I have sent him pictures of my controller after removing it yesterday for inspection at his request. He has concluded that it was improperly installed at the factory and he is sending me a new one today under warranty!

Thank you everyone, really appreciate all the help.

And a big thank you to golden motor Canada. I am still very impressed with the price of this motor, it's performance, and now, the fact that you truly honor your warranty!
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 03:07:03 PM by provo »

Offline Provo

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Re: Intermittent Throttle Fault
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2012, 04:11:42 PM »
Mr. Salo sent me a new controller under warranty and the bike is functional once again!

Thanks again to everyone who contributed to solving my problem.

When I took the controller out (the old one) there were wires that were bare and a lot of sulfation...

Much love,
Zach

Offline Provo

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Re: Intermittent Throttle Fault
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2012, 06:11:41 PM »
Well I must say this is a bit depressing...

After receiving the new controller the bike was running fine. I went to work and came back (8km one way) with the bike without a problem.
Yesterday I went to work without a problem again and on my way back I lost throttle response in a very similar fashion to my previous experience. Had to pedal home.

Battery is fine, cycle analyst is giving me voltage and all three lights are lighting up on the throttle (red, yellow and green).

It happened the same way as last time (I was moving at a constant speed for 30 seconds and throttle simply became non responsive very suddenly...)

I have put about 200km on the setup (and about 10km on the new controller).

Will conduct tests when I get home from work around 1 or 2am.