Author Topic: Idea for Regen  (Read 12080 times)

Offline Leslie

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Idea for Regen
« on: September 08, 2008, 11:48:11 PM »
Recently I’ve been experimenting with ultra caps, they charge ultra fast and seem to have enough capacity to at least hold more than a few regen brake charges.  One main problem is that capacitors in series divide the farads by amount of caps to an average.  EG. 5X@55farad in series = 11 farads which is a bummer really.  A good balance system between each leg of the capacitors may improve the situation.

Look, at the moment Im just playing around with super caps, leds and USB switch phase charging.  Caps do not charge like batteries and a good fast switch phase or pure DC feed is the best way to charge these suckers.

 My guess is that Ultra caps is the best answer to the regen efficiency loses and you can take advantage of the regen with the next pull on the throttle.

There is a site called http://www.batcap.net these are very specialized audio capacitors banks that can charge and discharge at extremely fast rates with phenomenal current passage in both directions.  Normal super caps would burn out in audio applications, however regen IMO is not so dependant on the terminals being so big chunky.  These bat cap things by the look are already balanced and a few small banks IMO opinion would be plenty enough to improve regen to over 80% (pulling figures out of the air) but prolly 99.999% improvements ;).

one idea that comes to mind even a regen mod that charges 30 X 1 farad 5v caps set in paralell and placed in series bumping up to a 5v over volt and use the potential storage as an overvolt.  Im pretty sure that the current that each can handle is around one amp and 30 farads with out doing the math is more than acceptable for regen, those batcaps plenty more ;P.

What happena when the 5v potential is used?

This mod would have to be patched into the controllers regen system as after the VDC main input so that the batteries are isolated from the caps during regen.  Then when the potential is used the controller isolates the caps until next regen brake....

Maybe a little involved but none the less it would work very well if built into the system as default and an upgrage optional regen pack to connect to the controller would at least validate and dignify the regen..
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 12:34:40 AM by Smeee »

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Offline Lanchon

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Re: Idea for Regen
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2008, 02:34:59 AM »
hi Smeee,

> One main problem is that capacitors in series divide the farads by amount of caps to an average.  EG. 5X@55farad in series = 11 farads which is a bummer really.  A good balance system between each leg of the capacitors may improve the situation.

there's nothing to be improved, capacitance is not energy, it's a different property. in your example, the 11 F capacitor made of 5 series caps when charged to 5x the max voltage per cap would store 5x the energy of a single 55 F cap charged to it's max voltage. that is, every cap would store it's max energy when connected in series. there's no loss of energy capacity, the reduction of the capacitance property due to series connection is of no concern in this regard.

the reason is that energy in a capacitor varies with the square of the voltage. the energy stored in a capacitor is:

E=(1/2)*C*V^2

where C is the capacitance (assumed constant) and V is the voltage. thus, the max energy is:

Emax=(1/2)*C*Vmax^2      (1)

if we put n equal caps in series we could consider the thing as being one single capacitor with these parameters:

Cseries = C/n
Vmaxseries = n*Vmax

since the whole combined thing is in itself a proper capacitor, equation (1) applies to it too, so:

Emaxseries=(1/2)*Cseries*Vmaxseries^2
 =(1/2)*(C/n)*(n*Vmax)^2
 =(1/2)*(1/n)*C*n^2*Vmax^2
 =n*(1/2)*C*Vmax^2
 =n*Emax

so the max energy of the series thing (when charge to n*Vmax) is n times the max energy of each cap.

> My guess is that Ultra caps is the best answer to the regen efficiency loses

I'm afraid it's not. in LiFePO4s, the energy efficiency (related to but not exactly the coulombic efficiency) is rather high. if you charge some energy into the batt and then discharge til you reach the original state of charge you'll find that you've recovered most of the energy (more than 95%, maybe a lot more). the efficiency depends on the power used to charge and discharge and the batt quality and power rating. (an A123 would barely heat up when others would strain... if you assume only reversible changes and there's no heat, there really can't be much lost energy.)

so what's up with regen? well, GM's HBS-36 isn't terribly efficient. when hooked to the 36V non-regen it peaks at 80% when outputting relatively low torque, but efficiency falls with higher or lower torque. (check this hub motor for comparison running at peak 98% efficiency:http://www.csiro.au/files/mediaRelease/mr1999/CsiroPowersFourSolarCars.htm) so when you break and then accel, the cycle going twice though the motor, you start with a peak theoretical efficiency of 64%. but when breaking and accelerating, chances are that you'll be using higher torques that what'd be the optimum, and thus right there half the energy is gone. then keep in mind that, all things equal, regen switching strategies are less efficient. so for starters the regen controller, if of the same quality, can't reach 80%.

and then, people in their minds tend to minimize the effect of losses, particularly aero drag. sure, E=(1/2)*m*v^2, we all know a certain energy is needed to accelerate a mass to 35Km/h; but are you aware of how much power is needed to keep it going at that speed? (there are many calculators on the web, try them out.) so many people don't realize that starts on most trips are a small fraction of the energy expenditure, and only that small fraction is there to be rescued by regen. I think this is the biggest factor of all.

so, raising the efficiency of the energy storage system from 95% to say 99% won't do a thing; in fact it'll cause shorter trips due added weight. also, the limited efficiency of the power converter used to charge and discharge the caps would offset your expected increase in storage system efficiency.

in short, if you want longer trips, pack more batteries, not dead weight (well, almost).

Offline Leslie

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Re: Idea for Regen
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2008, 04:46:07 AM »
Whoa thats a very long explaination.

These ultra caps have a serious voltage limit. The 55 farad caps have a 2.5 volt max on them..

I read on one site the formula for series capacitors in this aplication should be seen like this 1/(1/C1 + 1/C2 + ...)

CAPACITORS IN SERIES AND PARALLEL

Capacitors may be connected in series or in parallel to obtain a resultant value which may be either the sum of the individual values (in parallel) or a value less than that of the smallest capacitance (in series).

CAPACITORS IN SERIES

The overall effect of connecting capacitors in series is to move the plates of the capacitors further apart. This is shown in the figure below. Notice that the junction between C1 and C2 has both a negative and a positive charge. This causes the junction to be essentially neutral. The total capacitance of the circuit is developed between the left plate of C1 and the right plate of C2. Because these plates are farther apart, the total value of the capacitance in the circuit is decreased.




Yada yada yada

I don't know really. :|

« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 04:56:28 AM by Smeee »

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Offline Leslie

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Re: Idea for Regen
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2008, 05:12:06 AM »
hi Smeee,


in short, if you want longer trips, pack more batteries, not dead weight (well, almost).


LMAO.

Want to talk dead weight try using 3X12v 18ah sla's @ 4.7kg each :-(


Without hood


With hood


Nice for a 36V SLA beast
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 05:15:35 AM by Smeee »

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Offline Leslie

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Re: Idea for Regen
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2008, 06:15:16 AM »
Ultra caps are Hardly dead weight.



This little experiment I used 2X 2.5v 55 farad caps in series.

The the caps charge to full potential at 5.06 v in 2 seconds from a molex switch phase, and @ 25.25 27.5 farads, this lamp burns over volted for about an hour and settles efficient bright for 4 hours.  This three led lamp lights a whole path for my 40 km trip with the overvolt. If I could retrieve the the farads lost, this lamp would do a good 8 hours and would work great in solar applications.  These are only lil caps but capable of giving a hell of a lot more current at any given time compared to a similar sized nimh cell.  The cap dies sooner and has no chemical potential like a battery but who needs that for regen..

I can gets about 60 kms with those 18ah SLAs with some pedal power on a normal day and about 30 kms without pedals.

edit:
BTW

I used a 80k ohm? 1/4 watt resistor in series to bring down the V in to 3.6 v with the load so I wouldnt burn up all the power.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 07:02:13 AM by Smeee »

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Offline Lanchon

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Re: Idea for Regen
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2008, 07:26:38 AM »
> Ultra caps are Hardly dead weight.

from wikipedia: "existing commercial supercapacitors typically have an energy density around 0.02 MJ/kg, while lithium ion batteries are around 0.54–0.72 MJ/kg."

so at 30 times less specific energy than Li-ion, I'm afraid they are pretty much 97% dead weight...

> Whoa thats a very long explaination.
> I read on one site the formula for series capacitors...
> Yada yada yada

you're posting as if the info you found in some way contradicted what I said but it doesn't, not at all. I'm guessing you don't like long explanations enough to read them then... :|

> this lamp burns over volted for about an hour and settles efficient bright for 4 hours

hey wait a minute! that's not fair! you could work those little leds on a pair of AAA size alkalines, but that doesn't mean you'd get very far with them on your e-bike! :)

seriously now, the ultracaps are useful only when the power rating of the battery is not enough to handle short bursts of high power demand. that simple does not happen in ebikes using LiFePO4.

Offline Leslie

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Re: Idea for Regen
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2008, 08:25:00 AM »
How long do LiFePO4 Take to charge?


Quote
Hey wait a minute! that's not fair! you could work those little leds on a pair of AAA size alkalines

If im in a hurry I have to wait 15 mins for them to charge and the shops close at 8:30 pm here.

Nimh batteries seem to dim after an hours use anyway and it seems we have much better lumination when its most needed.

I understand the energy density thing but not all that energy density is usefull with the current and voltage limitation in the controllers.

regen is pussy compared to a good battery charger so you wouldnt need kg's of caps to do the trick and you still have to use regultors to use for the regen output do you not?

Its just everone I meet says regen is lame on bikes because batteries take long to charge.

I use SLA's because I live in cane country and its flat as.  Im lucky to use brakes 5 times a trip so I don't even bother with regen.  SLA's I believe charge much slower and regen would be lol for SLA's.  Im not going any lower than 18 ah batteries for my needs and 18ah lifepo4 are like $870AU each here so you can keep them. I can get 18ah SLA for $47AU.  Thats $141AU compared to $2610AU >>> PFT.... :D

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Offline Leslie

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Re: Idea for Regen
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2008, 08:32:35 AM »
And I reckon Id get 30kms at 40% dod on the sla's before cut off, it takes only 4.5 hour charge and im off again. Pretty cool huh!

I gots rid of those poofy handle bars and went back to standard mountain bike ones and had the do the famous GM forums hand grip cut and butt trick (thanks guys) due to the weight of the bike.  Those batteries have been held in place with secondhand rubber inner tubes for 3 months now and have not moved.  I replaced the rim with a good steel one and the bike is solid.

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Offline Leslie

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Re: Idea for Regen
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2008, 09:36:23 AM »
Here ya here is a similar practicle application that uses 1 farad ultra caps.


http://www.amazon.com/Garrity-Power-Crank-Titanium-Silver/dp/B000FLESY8#moreAboutThisProduct

1 minute crank you get 30 mins of light.

Can Lifepo4 do this in a similar setup? can they do a simple led lamp for 30 mins with 1 min hand cranking?

I'd say not.

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Offline Leslie

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Re: Idea for Regen
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2008, 10:25:59 AM »
I think they already use ultra caps for regen in hybrid cars.

Hang I'll google it.

http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/evaa2002_hanson_report.html

The AC Induction motor regens downhill. This was also tried with a 47 cell 320 Kwh Nicad power battery with ultracaps. Key Point: The ultracaps helped improve range by 20-30% by soaking up the current surges. A 100kw fast charger was used with very good 97% efficiency. The bus was run 112 miles and compared to a standard diesel 4.3mpg 26.2 gal per 10 hour shift


That will do it :D.

I rest my case.

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