Anyone elses laws bending??

[MonkeyMagic]

Hmmmmm

I've just been reading my state laws for 'power assisted bicycles' stemming from Alans post about the trailer...

This site has recently been updated. It used to be similar to Euro laws except it was not pedelec mandatory. It used to say "with a maximum speed of 25km/h" and also said it was restricted to 50km/h roads.

Not anymore !!!!!!! (sorry Mark I stole some of your !'s haha)

Technically, to be compliant with my state laws I can have a bike @ 144V and around 28Amps, if I use this while pedalling then apparently I'm legal...

It has the mention of if the bicycle primary power source is the motor blah blah blah but if my legs are moving then what??

I do know from a police memo that the cost to fund testing equipment far exceeds the demand for the tools so I am fairly safe to suck amps without any issues......

AMAZING !!!!!!!!!

So now... I will reconsider my next build muhuhahahha this is good news

I'm just glad about the 25km/h part, the cops are already really good around my area anyways.
What a stupid motor rule though, 200W That wouldn't even move me out of bed lol

[Bikemad]

Technically, to be compliant with my state laws I can have a bike @ 144V and around 28Amps, if I use this while pedalling then apparently I'm legal...

It has the mention of if the bicycle primary power source is the motor blah blah blah but if my legs are moving then what??

Which bit did I misread?

What is a motorised bicycle?
A motorised bicycle is identical to a pedal powered bicycle, except it has an auxillary motor or motors that have in combination a maximum ungoverned and continuous power output of 200 watts or less. Auxillary motor means that the primary propulsion is via pedalling and the motor is simply to assist.

A motorised bicycle is not classed as a bicycle if:
the motor is the primary source of power
the motor's power output exceeds 200 watts (whether or not the motor is operating).
These are considered to be motorcycles. The rider will be required to hold a motorcycle licence and have the vehicle registered before it can be used on the road network. Motorcycles cannot be ridden on footpaths or bicycle paths. Motorcycle riders must wear an approved motorcycle helmet.

Alan
 

[MonkeyMagic]

Hey mate you didn't misread anything. Perhaps I mis-wrote it !

144v * 200W = 28800mA / 28.8A ---> still legal as it's 200W lol

I was just saying that I did some reading stemming from your trailer post, but I couldn't find anything stating about the 'frame' etc. Only primary/auxilary motors with restrictions.

And since they cannot test the bike, I was saying that as long as I pedal, how on earth would police tell if I was moving the bike with my legs, or my motor(s) were doing it.

[Bikemad]

144v * 200W = 28800mA / 28.8A ---> still legal as it's 200W lol

Unfortunately, it's not quite that simple Monkey, Volts x Amps = Watts, therefore 144V x 28A = 4032 Watts which is 20 times greater than the legal limit!

If we rearrange the above formula we can get Watts / Volts = Amps:

200W / 144V = 1.389 Amps.

or Watts / Amps = Volts:

200W / 28A = 7.143 Volts.

Now these figures would be legal

And since they cannot test the bike, I was saying that as long as I pedal, how on earth would police tell if I was moving the bike with my legs, or my motor(s) were doing it.

Perhaps this will explain it better:

It will be considered to be a motorcycle if the motor's power output exceeds 200 watts (whether or not the motor is operating).

Alan
 

[MonkeyMagic]

LOL I totally used the wrong variable there haha thought I should have double checked that

I guess what I am saying is that there is no longer a speed limit (only the road speed limit) and as long as I seem like I am pedalling I shouldn't have any problem at all. It was 25km/h in January... Now no 25km/h limit.

The most important statement from the site was "where the primary source of power" relates to the motor would be the first thing police would pull me up on.

Perhaps this will explain it better:

It will be considered to be a motorcycle if the motor's power output exceeds 200 watts (whether or not the motor is operating).

Alan
 

Yes I can read dude! But still (I have not read personally), but I have had the National police memo read to me from April 2011 stating the decision is NOT to enforce testing. Cost of funds exceeds the demand. So, again, without any testing equipment I can say "my bike is 200W electric" and if I am travelling at a decent speed, then I will probably pretend to pedal. Even still, how will they know if the bike is powered by my wheels or my legs while I'm pedalling was the point

And that last part is confusing anyway - how would my electric motor exceed 200w not operating?? As a heater?? :S


MM

[gf3]

Is the 200 watts peek or average?

If it's average I'm fine my motor draw much less than 200 watts average over a 24 hour period

[MonkeyMagic]

Is the 200 watts peek or average?

If it's average I'm fine my motor draw much less than 200 watts average over a 24 hour period

Yeah its a weird fine line?? From what I read, it says "Maximum ungoverned peak output"

Then other places it reads "It will be considered to be a motorcycle if the motor's power output exceeds 200 watts (whether or not the motor is operating)"

So I'm a little stumped.... that did not suggest 'intermittently'

I do know for a fact, that importing motor assisted bicycles did have a MAXIMUM output of 200W however, this was last year in November when I last imported. If the Australian websites have changed since then, perhaps the import rules apply too but they are still in force from 1986

I think alot of innovations have happenend since 1986 !!!

It's all Lance Armstrongs fault, good bloke but geez he is a complete knob by saying that any bicycle above 200W is DANGEROUS to anyone as they will lose control. He must be unco-ordinated as to think that.

Anyway it's all his fault for being the guy to test them, then set the restrictions.....

[rageon09]

LOL I totally used the wrong variable there haha thought I should have double checked that

I guess what I am saying is that there is no longer a speed limit (only the road speed limit) and as long as I seem like I am pedalling I shouldn't have any problem at all. It was 25km/h in January... Now no 25km/h limit.

The most important statement from the site was "where the primary source of power" relates to the motor would be the first thing police would pull me up on.

Perhaps this will explain it better:

It will be considered to be a motorcycle if the motor's power output exceeds 200 watts (whether or not the motor is operating).

Alan
 

Yes I can read dude! But still (I have not read personally), but I have had the National police memo read to me from April 2011 stating the decision is NOT to enforce testing. Cost of funds exceeds the demand. So, again, without any testing equipment I can say "my bike is 200W electric" and if I am travelling at a decent speed, then I will probably pretend to pedal. Even still, how will they know if the bike is powered by my wheels or my legs while I'm pedalling was the point

And that last part is confusing anyway - how would my electric motor exceed 200w not operating?? As a heater?? :S


MM

You know, I was thinking of the same thing myself the other day. I would look totally legit if I do light pedaling and not go too fast. Unfortunately where I am, the law is - a 200W limit engine, the 25km/h speed limit and the fact that the motor can only work while the rider pedals (pedelec?).

Even if you manage to make it look like you are totally legal, any policeman who stops you can easily tell if your bike is illegal. Here, all "legal" electric bike systems need to have a tag or seal. If you don't have one or didn't go get it tested to get one, it's considered illegal and an automatic ticket. So yeah, you can get busted without the police testing your bike and it sucks. 200W + 25km/h is really really slow.

I am inclined to take a risk and use a Pie on my bike. Is there a way to program the external controller so it limits the speed to 25km/h and only draws 200W in "safe" mode and with a switch of a jumper, go into "illegal" mode without the restrictions? Has anyone attempted something like that?

[MonkeyMagic]

LOL I totally used the wrong variable there haha thought I should have double checked that

I guess what I am saying is that there is no longer a speed limit (only the road speed limit) and as long as I seem like I am pedalling I shouldn't have any problem at all. It was 25km/h in January... Now no 25km/h limit.

The most important statement from the site was "where the primary source of power" relates to the motor would be the first thing police would pull me up on.

Perhaps this will explain it better:

It will be considered to be a motorcycle if the motor's power output exceeds 200 watts (whether or not the motor is operating).

Alan
 

Yes I can read dude! But still (I have not read personally), but I have had the National police memo read to me from April 2011 stating the decision is NOT to enforce testing. Cost of funds exceeds the demand. So, again, without any testing equipment I can say "my bike is 200W electric" and if I am travelling at a decent speed, then I will probably pretend to pedal. Even still, how will they know if the bike is powered by my wheels or my legs while I'm pedalling was the point

And that last part is confusing anyway - how would my electric motor exceed 200w not operating?? As a heater?? :S


MM

You know, I was thinking of the same thing myself the other day. I would look totally legit if I do light pedaling and not go too fast. Unfortunately where I am, the law is - a 200W limit engine, the 25km/h speed limit and the fact that the motor can only work while the rider pedals (pedelec?).

Even if you manage to make it look like you are totally legal, any policeman who stops you can easily tell if your bike is illegal. Here, all "legal" electric bike systems need to have a tag or seal. If you don't have one or didn't go get it tested to get one, it's considered illegal and an automatic ticket. So yeah, you can get busted without the police testing your bike and it sucks. 200W + 25km/h is really really slow.

I am inclined to take a risk and use a Pie on my bike. Is there a way to program the external controller so it limits the speed to 25km/h and only draws 200W in "safe" mode and with a switch of a jumper, go into "illegal" mode without the restrictions? Has anyone attempted something like that?

Hey Rageon hows it going

What country are you in? How are the labels registered do you know? I mean what is stopping someone from duplicating one....

[e-lmer]

I think they mean that it is a motorcycle just by
having a motor over 200W,
 even if the motor is not running.

[Leslie]

I got pulled over going down a hill and the cop said I was doing 50kph.  Liar.

And then he busted me for 10.4 grams of pot.  I pleaded innocent and they had to analize the weed and it weighed 7.1 grams.  Who took the 3.3 grams?

Well I switch my bike down and he couldnt figure out how to switch it back on.  So I kept my bike and road it home from the watch house. They must of drove it to the police station.  On the audio evidence I over heard the cops on the radio, 200 watts 25 to 28 kph.



Remember this is max output not max watts drawn from your pack.

To stay in QLD stupid they don't know jack laws.

Consider your efficiencies as well.  At around 70% efficiency going up a big hill is to be expected. So 287 watts is about all one can afford from a pack in QLD up hills..

Running from a stop start is different.  Low RMP during a heavy load reduces efficiencies approx down to 25%  so I could afford 800 watts from my pack on the take off.

At full speed no hills one could expect around 80% efficiency.  So I could afford 250 @ 50v = 5 amps from my pack to stay by law in QLD.  Would barley keep me moving @ 15kph.

It seems it is not easy, cut and dry to make the thing worth your while with brushless bikes and the law is outdated for the new technologies.  It is a bit like saying the model T ford handleablity at max power is crap so we expect the latest fords to not exceed 1 horse manuer in power.

Fair IMO by the CA readout. 800 watts on take off, 600 watts on flats and about 864 watts up hill to make up for the lost efficiency..

But why are gearless motors more efficient than geared motors?  They are only on good flat terrain where there is not stop startings..

I just keep a speed limiter on my ebike and this way I don't create too much attention..