Author Topic: PAS Pedelec Sensor with voltage output..not pulse output  (Read 21301 times)

Offline DirtyGinge

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PAS Pedelec Sensor with voltage output..not pulse output
« on: April 01, 2011, 07:49:22 PM »
Hi all

Now I know from reading many posts, that everyone would love a PAS sensor that can be put through the cycle analyst instead of the pulse signal that needs to go to the controller, so speed can be controlled

Ive located some, ordered a couple, ( one for me, and one for Webby, who has caught the chinese forgotten life, buy bike bits bug)

Ill let you know how this works out as soon as arrived, with the usual stats, testing. breaking, short circuit and ginger crotch burns....but pricing seemed great at $15 dollars and $10 dolllars post tothe UK...supplier is most rated so I have no doubt its the real deal
fingers crossed
« Last Edit: April 10, 2011, 09:36:52 AM by dirtyginge »
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Offline GM Canada

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Re: PAS Sensor with throttle output..not pulse
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2011, 12:56:45 PM »
I would also be very interested in this, where did you find them?

Gary

Offline DirtyGinge

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Re: PAS Sensor with throttle output..not pulse
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2011, 03:35:24 PM »
san fransisco :)......same individual as the controller, read a post on endless sphere.... lyen@hotmail.com

WEll package is in transit, so ill give it a good testing for you all :), then let you loose

im thinking of

Feed in to the cycle analyst....

resistor or potentiometer based on the fly limiting

ill certainly keep you all posted
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 10:49:26 PM by Bikemad »
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Offline DirtyGinge

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Re: PAS Sensor with throttle output..not pulse
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2011, 06:14:03 PM »
right chappies

Here in the uk we are having lovely weather, so spent the day fitting my new 3 way power mode switch, the voltage out pedelec and finally......finally doing something decent with my stem mounted speakers ( usb speakers carved up)....

So quick version..... the pedelec works exactly as described....placed the pedelec on the frame, put an inline 330 ohm resistor for the cycle analyst, wired into the throttle line via a switch....and voila...pedelec on/off.....and the cycle analyst can control and limit the ampage / speed limit....

So unlike the pulse pedelec, this one can be manipulated, either by the cycle analyst, resistors, potentiameter for speed limit etc etc etc.....much more flexible.......and of course because its feeding into the infineon throttle line, the three way switch can be used to set different "modes" of controller use, soft aggressive etc...and if I pedal at the same speed, can set cruise with the pedal :D

more detailed installation post to arrive shortly :)
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Offline DirtyGinge

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Re: PAS Sensor with throttle output..not pulse
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2011, 06:41:33 PM »
So in stages then

Pedal off, and clean the surfaces ( yes this will be the one part of the bike that is clean)...hey webby, ive oiled my chain .....its once a year oil whether it needs it or not lol...........

Like most mountain bikes now, I don't have the locking ring on the outside, and the chainset side is too cramped for space....so time for some metal bonding compound from screwfix...about £9.....its a bit like epoxy resin...dual compound, paste and hardener

Once mixed, you got about 2 mins to get all in place...have a razorblade or pointed knife ready to clean up the excess, you don't want to metal bond your cartridge in place....really important to get everything out of the threads as soon as possible...

so a nice little layer on the pedelec ring, press to the frame, hold and clean excess with other hand
( yes I know the paste is on the wrong side of the pedelec ring....did it twice !!...nothing to do with the beer)

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Offline DirtyGinge

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Re: PAS Sensor with throttle output..not pulse
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2011, 06:50:15 PM »
so held all in place for about 3 mins and pretty set.....the rust is the result of the winter salt on the frame, tore it to bits...

the magnet ring had a few raised bumps on it, so I filed them off, as the voltage pedelec doesnt have much room for spare....i also bonded the ring to the pedal, and even with that, there is about 1MM spare .....

all wired up for road test tommorrow...and some paste cleanup needed :D

three speed switch installed, as I want to be able to choose between 100 and 120% speed mode depending on road/conditions

Next image is the "what have I got, ooh a grill, and black spray paint, 10 mins to go " modification of the speakers...instead of screws and wires, decided to mount them on the stem cap, nice neat and simple

And the final monty...the donkey, complete with new forks and front pie removed, pedelec, 3 mode switch, and lots and lots of mud...

I was pushed for time, so sorry I didnt take as many pics as I would like, but will answer any questions if ive missed stuff
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Offline DirtyGinge

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Re: PAS Sensor with throttle output..not pulse
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2011, 07:11:29 PM »
so just to clear up, the "black box" of the pedelec ring should be facing outwards, towards the magnetic ring.......

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Offline DirtyGinge

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Re: PAS Sensor with voltage output..not pulse output
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2011, 09:36:29 AM »
Well it works exactly as described........but there are a couple of smaller issues ( which I think you would have regardless of what pedelec)
out I went this morning, felt great, prefectly like a natural cycle in the country on a fine morning.....
I think to be honest that with a controller this powerful, you would need the 3 way switch, or another method of power control, because at 30mph, 15 amps is great, but at traffic lights, 50amp peak isnt exactly whats required :D
I disabled cruise this morning, as the peddaling kept setting the cruise, and I wanted a more responsive test
4 settings available in my setup
0...pedelec switched off ( really do recommend a switch for this)
1...cycle analyst engaged.....15mph limit, 6 amp limit
2...switch 1 setting 70%.....18mph rough limit, no current limit
3...switch 2 setting 100%.....24mph rough limit, no current limit
4...switch 3 setting 120%.....30mph rough limit, no current limit

startup in cycle analyst in low gear is nice and smooth, not too much power, nice fast cadence, and throttle slowly works up to limit speed...this mode is great for the feel of actually cycling, as once you get over the power / mph threshold, its your legs providing the balance of power, but without the hassle of trying to balance the throttle, or cruise mode, where the controller will just pump more amps to keep the speed...
Startup in switch mode 1-3 is ok, but there is no current limit, so you will go to top end speed quite quickly, hence the reason for the 3 way switch recommendation..setting one is great for about town or junctions, 2 is a good alrounder for long straight roads countryside etc, and 3 is for when you just wanna hammer ( not wet icy etc..)
Now the smaller issues are just two really

1...like most pedelecs I've found that although it works, its not a torque sensor, so if you pedal faster, the motor will accelerate, so your for instance coming up to lights, you drop down gears for an easy start, but whilst you wanna slow, the motor will accelerate.....ebrakes will cancel it of course and an off switch will also be a help.....
numbrt two is a little bit more painful.....throttle regen....now as electrobent has described, there is a throttle regen effect on the infineon controllers...if you let go of the throttle above 10mph, the motor goes into a light regen mode....can be cancelled by holding the throttle just a little open, but if you arent using the throttle...here is what happens

your heading for a speed ramp, you stop peddaling just before, bend knees and stand up , but youve stoppped peddaling, so throttle regen kicks in at the point you are standing up.......hmmmm
Cure of course.......use a dual pole on switch for the pedalec, on one side, the throttle pass through, on the other side, a 12k resistor....this will pass a constant about 1v to the motor, cancels the throttle regen, current is about 0.05 amp...just remember to turn off if you are going to leave the bike standing with the battery connected.....
But if you use end bars, then you have more control, so pedal for power, light pedal for coast, stop pedal for braking, all without leaving the end bars....guess its just getting used to it

overall its great, mostly due to the fact that as a voltage output independant of the controller, you have many many options to manipulate the output whilst cycling.....personally for me the 3 way infineon switch really fine tunes it.......and the cycle analyst limiting works perfectly with it ( resistor in line of course)

For Gm controllers, you could work a 3 way switch with different resistor values on each flick, light medium and no resistance.......should cater for everything :D
any questions ????
« Last Edit: April 10, 2011, 09:40:47 AM by dirtyginge »
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Offline DirtyGinge

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Re: PAS Pedelec Sensor with voltage output..not pulse output
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2011, 06:44:49 PM »
well, thoroughly tested today and its really good, seemed to be less strain on the hands too as I wasnt gripping the handlebars as tight as normal...and the old favourite, cycling with no hands

The good thing about the infineon is that the 3 speed settings not only limits the top speed, but also re-maps the throttle, so that for instance in speed 1, 50% throttle will get you to example 10mph, setting 2 50% throttle to 15mph etc.....so the throttle feels either a lot smoother or a lot more aggressive

This also translates down to the PAS sensor, in my settings in speed 1, 6 gear is cruise, speed 2 7 gear is cruise, speed 3, speed 8 is cruise, going 1 gear less accelerates etc.....but only if you want to "push chain"

for perfect control, choose a low gear so you are effectively freewheeling and pedal to whatever speed you want, giving you control over cruise, throttle regen braking and accelerate.......pretty cool......did love it over the GM pedelec, which just wanted to put me through a wall, and couldnt be put through any sort of restrictions......

set my speed settings now to 65%, 80% and 100%, should cover the commute well.........got 2 extra units for andrew and webby, but if they don't need them ill let you know :D

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Offline jbond

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Re: PAS Sensor with voltage output..not pulse output
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2011, 08:48:28 AM »
1...like most pedelecs I've found that although it works, its not a torque sensor, so if you pedal faster, the motor will accelerate, so your for instance coming up to lights, you drop down gears for an easy start, but whilst you wanna slow, the motor will accelerate.....ebrakes will cancel it of course and an off switch will also be a help.....

So the PAS is not just a two position switch, no-pedal, pedal = 0v, 5v. The output voltage depends on the pedal speed?

I have this dream of a 3 input system for the controller throttle. PAS+CA = Low current limit. Throttle always over-rides this for full controller current limit. So the PAS acts like an economy mode cruise control with soft power. But this can always be over-ridden for short bursts of speed or climbing a hill by simply winding in the throttle.

Offline DirtyGinge

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Re: PAS Pedelec Sensor with voltage output..not pulse output
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2011, 09:27:16 AM »
Hi there

The PAS module is only a voltage out module, 1-4 volts depending on speed of pedalling....so yes, this can be input straight into the cycle analyst for current / speed limiting....

Regards
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Offline jbond

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Re: PAS Pedelec Sensor with voltage output..not pulse output
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2011, 10:53:29 AM »
The PAS module is only a voltage out module, 1-4 volts depending on speed of pedalling....so yes, this can be input straight into the cycle analyst for current / speed limiting....

It's the "depending on speed of pedalling" bit that I'm disappointed by. I was hoping it was a straight on-off switch 1-4 volts (or 0-5v or whatever). As described above this leads to unpredictable output depending on your current gearing and current cadence. If it was either 1v or 4v regardless of pedal speed, you'd get no-assist or assist regardless of gearing, road speed, etc. The CA (and controller settings) would then decide how much assist to provide.

I've got an Alien Aurora at the moment with a BPM motor and LZDSZ controller with a throttle-PAS switch. In PAS mode, pedalling cadence makes no difference at all. Assist is either on or off for pedalling-no-pedalling with no variation in between. The moment you start pedalling and the motor kicks in, you get 100% throttle power. That's actually an argument for a CA limited economy mode for the PAS, because in dense traffic or off-road it can get a bit jerky as the PAS kicks in.

Offline DirtyGinge

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Re: PAS Pedelec Sensor with voltage output..not pulse output
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2011, 02:56:31 PM »
Hi

That was once of the reasons for my not using the GM pas, it seemed way to powerful.......certainly I couldnt use an on/off pas, the controller combination I have now would be wayyyy to powerful.....

I guess you could use the PAS to power a relay or relay component such as a transistor, that should switch on at low voltage, giving you either on or off....not going to solve your limiting problem though

Would it not be better to have an on/off switch for the CA cycle analyst drain, that will enable you to turn on or off the limiting, which should work with your current setup...limited for traffic, no limiting for open road ??
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