New to the forum with a lot of questions for a new vehicle

[_GonZo_]

Hello I am new to the forum and new to electric bikes, but not new to similar electric systems, actually I own a small company were we manufacture Lithium batteries for especial systems and RC.

I have now a project in mind of and electric vehicle, similar to a trike and I have found out that the Magic Pie may be is the best solution.
But I do not have enough information about it, I have been reading already on this forum and I have learn a lot of things but I still missing some technical info.

One of the pros I find out in order to choose this motor is this forum that gives support.

The project is to build a vehicle similar to a trike with two seats for pedaling side by side, some thing similar to a twike ( http://www.twike.co.uk/ ) and instal on it 2 or 3 wheel motors.
The idea is to use the MP with internal controllers, due simplicity.

OK, here are my questions:

1- I plan to use a 16S Life battery so around 51,2V nominal and around 59V at maximum charge. On Goldenmotor web site says that the internal controler supports up to 60V
Will the controller/motor support that voltage, or I will fry them...?
Have someone tested at that voltage?

2- The GM site says that the GP controller can be programed by USB, but I do not find anywhere what can be programed.
Can someone point me to a list of the parameters that can be programed on the controller?
Or even better, is it possible to download the program so anyone can check it?

3- Is it possible to modify the controller in order to get more power and make it work at higher voltage and/or higher amperage?

4- What is the cogging torque of this motors?

5- Is it possible to modify this wheel motor in order to bolt them only on one side? because in the trike two motors are going to be installed only by one side

6- Can the motor work in both directions by programing? or internal connections have to be modified in order to make them work in reverse.

Thank you for your support.

BTW, I can help here on any problems or question about batteries I will try to do my best.

[Bikemad]

1- I plan to use a 16S Life battery so around 51,2V nominal and around 59V at maximum charge. On Goldenmotor web site says that the internal controler supports up to 60V
Will the controller/motor support that voltage, or I will fry them...?
Below 60V is fine, but it will not work above 60V!

Have someone tested at that voltage?
For more details check out this post.

2- The GM site says that the GP controller can be programed by USB, but I do not find anywhere what can be programed.
Can someone point me to a list of the parameters that can be programed on the controller?


Or even better, is it possible to download the program so anyone can check it?
You can download the program here.

3- Is it possible to modify the controller in order to get more power and make it work at higher voltage and/or higher amperage?
It can be modified to increase the power, but this is likely to have an adverse effect on its reliability.

4- What is the cogging torque of this motors?
The resistance to pedalling is quite noticeable when the motor is not being used, and I would imagine it would be pretty hard work pedalling against three motors at any reasonable speed.

5- Is it possible to modify this wheel motor in order to bolt them only on one side? because in the trike two motors are going to be installed only by one side
It has been done, but I don't honestly know how secure it would be using just one side fixing with the hollowed out axle.


6- Can the motor work in both directions by programing? or internal connections have to be modified in order to make them work in reverse.
Not all Magic Pies were wired for reverse, and I'm not sure if the later ones are able to be switched externally. You should be able to do it by swapping the phase wires and hall sensor wires internally. Check out this post for more details.

Welcome aboard Gonzo, I hope this reply answers most of your questions.

Alan
 

[_GonZo_]

Bikemad you are the flying pan 

Thanks a lot for your answers, for the moment it is all I was looking for, now I am going to study them and will find more questions for sure...

Thanks

[_GonZo_]

About the program now still have some questions... 

1- For what I can see at the program window, there is a setting for normal running direction on the PAS area. This will save us work from rewiring phases and halls...
What is PAS?
Am I thinking right and it is to make it work in one direction or other?
What means on the PAS area Level: Low, Mid, High?

2- I suppose when they say Speed Scale is a way to limit maximum speed, right?

3- As well I can see the REV function (lets call it reverse gear), I suppose that this is to make the motor run in reverse by a switch and to manage the maximum backwards bike speed.
I am right?
What means Immed and Unimm at the REV area?

4- On the Max Current area it goes up to 30A and 50A, but as commented the internal controller is limited to 20A.
How should we understand this?

5- For what I seen on the post about reverse post some MP comes with the cable/s to activate the "reverse gear" and others don´t.
Is it possible to add that missing cable/s and make it work if we receive MP with out them?

That is all for now.

You can not belive how similar is that vehicle that you posted to my firsts drawings of my idea  I will tray to post a drawing of it when ready.

About the one side shaft I thought that the MP have no hollow shaft, anyway, my idea is to modify existing shaft or make a new stronger one in order to handle better the axial and torsional forces.

[Bikemad]

1- For what I can see at the program window, there is a setting for normal running direction on the PAS area. This will save us work from rewiring phases and halls...
What is PAS?
The PAS stands for "Pedal Assist System", which uses a sensor mounted near the pedal shaft to detect the rotational movement of the pedals and automatically allow power to the motor when the bike is being pedalled.

Am I thinking right and it is to make it work in one direction or other?
It's to change the direction of the PAS sensor detection, not the motor direction. The PAS should only work when the pedals are turned in the normal pedal direction, but sometimes it may operate when the pedals are turned backwards. Reversing the direction in the software should allow correct operation of the PAS without having to actually remove the pedal crank and transpose the magnet ring fitted on the pedal shaft.

What means on the PAS area Level: Low, Mid, High?
It relates to the amount of power assistance that the motor will provide in PAS mode.

2- I suppose when they say Speed Scale is a way to limit maximum speed, right?
Yes, it allows only the selected percentage of the actual maximum motor speed, so a setting of 50% would only allow half motor speed at full throttle.

3- As well I can see the REV function (lets call it reverse gear), I suppose that this is to make the motor run in reverse by a switch and to manage the maximum backwards bike speed.
I am right?
Yes that's correct, but only if the controller supports the "Reverse" function and is wired to allow it to be switched.

What means Immed and Unimm at the REV area?
"Immed" allows Reverse to be switched immediately, even if the wheel is still turning in a forward direction, "Unimm" (Unimmediate?) means that the wheel must be stopped before the controller will allow Reverse to operate.

4- On the Max Current area it goes up to 30A and 50A, but as commented the internal controller is limited to 20A.
How should we understand this?
The controllers were supposed to be rated as 50Amp controllers, but in reality they seem to vary from between 15 and 30Amps max. I don't know if setting the maximum to 10Amps in the software will still allow 10Amps or whether it will only allow 20% of each controllers  maximum achievable Amps (20% of 15-30Amps would only be 3-6Amps).

5- For what I seen on the post about reverse post some MP comes with the cable/s to activate the "reverse gear" and others don´t.
Is it possible to add that missing cable/s and make it work if we receive MP with out them?
As far as I am aware, all of the Pies with internal controllers have the yellow cable in the harness, but only some of them had it connected to the Reverse terminal (marked "d") on the speed controller circuit board. Early Pies (like mine) had the yellow wire cut short and left disconnected inside the hub, and the later programmable Pies had it connected to the data interface terminal (marked "Rx") where it was used for programming the controller. I don't know if the later programmable controllers still support the Reverse function.

About the one side shaft I thought that the MP have no hollow shaft, anyway, my idea is to modify existing shaft or make a new stronger one in order to handle better the axial and torsional forces.
Although it is a solid axle, it does have a slot machined into it where it passes through the centre of the bearing so that the wires can pass through it, which must have some effect on it's strength.  Without knowing how deep and wide the slot is, it's difficult to know what percentage of the axle's cross sectional area has been removed.

I can't test the Reverse function because I don't have a later version Pie to experiment with, has anyone with a later type Pie been able to get the reverse function to work?

Perhaps you should email tom@goldenmotor.com and ask whether the switchable Reverse function still actually works on the current internal controllers.

Alan
 

[_GonZo_]

Thank you again Alan, now it is all more clear.

So if I want a MP to work in reverse direction I have to rewire, this is going to be need done in at least one motor because each one goes in each side of the trike.

And if I want to know more about "reverse gear" I have to ask here or to GM.

I have been reading a lot more on the eBike mods forum and learn a lot about this controllers and motor. Apparently the motor is capable of quite a lot more than 1000W but the internal controllers are a bit tricky.

[_GonZo_]

Well, after thinking and defining what I need for my project I think that the Controller that comes with the MP internal or external is not up to my needs.
- Able to work in both directions
- With "reverse gear"
- Battery management
- Proper regenerative brake
- Up to 60V or more

It is a pity that I can not use the internal controller, that will have saved me work, space, and complications, but it is what it is...

I have been searching the net and I think that have find a controller that have all my needs and even more is this one: KBS72051,20A,24-72V http://Kellycontroller.com/kbs7205120a24-72v-p-505.html

Do you think it will be suitable to the MP?
Have anyone tested one?

[Bikemad]

That Kelly controller might be OK if you can get it to work, one forum member who tried a Kelly controller on a GM hubmotor could not get it to work at all.

Check out this post.

Alan
 

[_GonZo_]

I searched the web about it and found this, it can be helpful: http://www.bergerweb.net/electricbike/Motor-HallPhasingChart.html

The MP is a very standard out-runner brush-less motor so there must be no problem to make it work with that controller, the problem is to find the correct way to connect the hall sensors, I think with that spread sheet it can be solved.

[MonkeyMagic]

It's only certain Kelly controllers, I think even just the older type that use a different signal or PWM wave form

I've read about it but know/remember nothing other than there were 'x' many wave forms, and these Kelly controllers only did 1 of them while the newer/other types had programmable or automatic features.

Kelly controllers WILL work with a GM motor. If I come across enough cash to splash on one with some decent batteries then I'll be changing my rear wheel to external Kelly drive no doubt