My euro regs standard dual pie rewire......

[DirtyGinge]

Hi All

after receiving my second pie over christmas, and having now completed 1500 miles of long distance commuting, I decided to rewire my electrics based on the experiences I had over that time ( snow ice, deer, rabbit).....for me there were some plain objectives to be achieved, and whilst discussing it with andrew, decided also to share it with you all so that you might gain some ideas for yourselves...

this will take several posts, due to several sick kids, unwell wife, and just too much honey wine to type conshishtentleeeeeeee ....please be patient, it may seem incomplete, but ill get to it , the wiring is complete, and testing is completed, all objectives ticked

The rewire had to achieve several basic objectives

1.....to be able to comply as much as possible with UK e-bike regulations
2.....to be able to remove the front pie temporarily without much hassle
3.....instant power reduction, for more grip in the snow wet etc. ( suggest rear wheel drive only )
4.....to support multiple battery configurations
5.....safety throttle cut offs


now you may ask, why buy dual pies, then want to reduce power.....well, there are instances where range is preferable over torque.......the dual pies are more efficient, ONLY if you accelerate exactly as with only 1 pie, and pedal up hills exactly as one pie, but the experience I have is that if you have steep hills, or are tired, drunk,sick, cold wet etc, then you will be heavy handed with the throttle, and therefore have the potential to use more power......now whilst 2 pies at 7 watts each are more efficient than a single pie drawing 14 amps, if onlyl 1 pie is active, the max I have drawn is 15 amps, with 2 pies active I have drawn 33 amps max... more power and less range........so the option is required to choose in my opinion

in order to achieve the above goals, I must achieve the following

1...watt limit
the uk regulations state maximum 200 watts on ONE motor with throttle, or EU regs 250 watts with PAS and no throttle...in this instance I have decided to go with the 1983 road traffic act, defining an electric bike as 200 watts continuous power output  by throttle on ONE MOTOR ONLY

PLEASE NOTE....

the DVLA consider the use of a "boost" button, or bypass of the watt limit to be in defiance of the regulations, therefore any bypass must be well concealed ( for off road use only, I love queen and country )....the power can only be applied to one motor, the use of two working motors of any kind is considered toeb in violation of the regs

2....as I have pannier bags, the rear pie is concealed nicely both visually and sound wise, therefore if I need to ego into a "hot area" in daylight, I must be able to change the front motor for a standard non motor wheel at very short notice, therefore, all 5V feeds for the throttle relays etc must come from the back pie only

3....Need to isolate the front throttle pie signal, so I can run on rear only

4...be able to use my own dual lithium bombs, or the golden motor battery, whichever battery configuration is used, balance in the bike must be achieved,

5.....i need to be able to cut off all throttle signals, and also to be able at the same time to disable the pies "emergency " mode so that the cruise control button does not turn into a 15MPH monster activator ( both for legal and safety reasons)

[DirtyGinge]

stage one....

Needed

1 cycle analyst
at least 9 SBM 50 anderson powerpole connectors
2 x 10K resistors
2 x 2 K resistors
1 x 330 OHM resistors
1 x diode
push throttle with headlight button
another bottle of honey wine
1 x choc box ( from screwfix.com , item number 46538)
2 x 5v relays ( from www. maplins.com...N29 AW single pole dual throw)
lots of beer and honey wine
a very patient wife
soldering iron and rosin flux solder
propane blow torch for the anderson connectors, unless you are very patient with a soldering iron

[DirtyGinge]

The activation switches.....

There will be required, 2 x on/ off switches

1 will activate the SPDT relays, the other will connect / disconnect the front throttle feed

now, as much as I love you all, I cannot divulge the secret switches on my bike ( its just to plain kinky), so no pics available, however may I offer a suggestion

what if, each glove you wore had a magnet, and you had managed to embed reed switches under the rubber grips on the handlebar, then if you move your left hand, the limiter comes on restricting speed and cutting off the front pie, and if you remove your right hand, the front pie throttle is disconnected
( www.maplin.com     cl38R)
now if only you could come across a cheap source of rare earth magnets
http://www.dansdata.com/magnets.htm

[DirtyGinge]

so, starting off then,

The cycle analyst os of the stand alone type, with a shunt added into the power line, in order to measure the current flowing from battery to controllers...

in all of my powerline I have used anderson connectors.... I have cut the standard connector off the charger and charge my GM battery through the discharge port via andersons, and everything hereafter has an anderson on it...this way I can chop and change as required

for instance

1 battery feeds both pies
2 batteries feeds both pies
2 batteries feed one pie each
3 batteries feed both pies ( hippie camping smokin weekend...bike trailer smoke and solar panel)

so whichever way you want it, the anderson will allow a sort of ( lego) stick it where you want it configuration

[Bikemad]

therefore, all 5V feeds for the throttle relays etc must come from the back pie only

I think you will need to use a separate 5V supply for energising your relays, as the 5V controller throttle and hall sensor output would not provide enough current to operate even a single miniature relay when I tried it.

Alan

[MonkeyMagic]

Howdyyy

Hey yes the 5v reg is a SMD type, and puts out 100mA. So after the IC and halls sinking some of that, I expect about 30-40mA remaining...

If you are just switching throttle signals on and off, you could use a switch or to do it electronically, NPN transistors would work fine. With a base current of around 2mA you could do this.

Hey did you say you were charging your battery from the discharge port?? I'm not sure if that's good as the BMS has seperate connections for discharge, charging and battery connection.

I'd say the balanced charge connections, the BMS would have a max input of I assume 5A

This still really puzzles me, as the max input for these cells in 48v GM pack should be 18A charging max, so regen values exceed that.

Could it be, that charging your battery via the discharge terminal would charge the battery unbalanced, until it reached 54.6 when the charger switches itself off?

I'd be reconnecting that one

[DirtyGinge]

to be honest I rarely use my GM battery now, so it hasnt been an issue, but I still have another GM charger with the original end...

With regards to the relays, they both run with the 5v supply, but they are miniature relays....

Here is the complexity issue
With one switch, I need to turn the limiter on, and at the same time turn the front throttle off.. this needs to be done very discreetly, should for some strange reason I forget, once coming from "off road" onto the main roads, to reconfigure for legality , and should the policeman query this bike, only 1 motor must be functional, as well as the 250W 15 MPH limit

So the relays at the same time with the same imput, both connect the Cycle analyst current sink, and disconnect the throttle for the front pie, thats why I went with the above configuration...

I like the ideas of doing it electronically, so maybe thats an update for the future, but at the mo, all is working fine

As for regen, ive recorded regen of 23-25 amps for 1 pie...now considering that the controller is set up for around 15 amps in 1 direction, taking 25 the opposite way doesnt make sense to me...i don't use regen as it seems to risky, I have lots of hills around me

http://www.maplin.co.uk/5a-and-10a-miniature-relay-2512

[Andrew]

Blummin 'ell mate!   my head is spinning

I've just got around to reading this and it sounds like a whole load of fun to have such a project on the go.

I'm a little further down the evolutionary chain to you at present, i'm starting a bike build project. Just a cheapy steel frame/fork assembly from cheap ebay parts I can pick-up.  The idea being to eventually try  out a dual mini motor set-up.

i can now see from your plans that you are as paranoid as I am  when passing the fuzz on UK roads.

By the way, Does a battery build thread come next?

[MonkeyMagic]

Hey Andrew

You could look around for a steel frame, or older frames you could find would be a bargain - not sure what its called in your country but have a look in a Walmart (Australia ours is called KMart and some others...) and other big variety stores that have bikes

Nearly all of them have specials on the steel frame bikes because they don't sell as well. So you can pick up a full suspension steel frame for like $200 that probably has front and rear disc brake mounts.

My bike is actually a kids 24" lol I just put all my bits I wanted on it to make it bigger.

[DirtyGinge]

Hi Andrew...

yes all the battery pics are done, its just that I keep getting drunk....last night I had my hands over my head typing, as the only thing holding me up was my teeth biting into the computer table.....

I gotta finish this thread though, by showing how everything was achieved with very little trouble.......like I said at the beginning, I hope it helps others in the forum.....and after several thousand miles and several different ways, this one works really cool

regards

[DirtyGinge]

Hey andrew, check ebay for trek frames.... I bought 2 and built a beautiful trek 4100 aluminium for my actual cycling...total weight 5 kgs, total cost 40 squids.....


Monkey, I had a brief look with a hangover on the wiki of the NPN transistor....whats the quick scoop on how they operate, like a fet, apply current to energise the 3rd pin ?...cheers

[MonkeyMagic]

Quick breakdown?

NPN = negative switching (switch the GND throttle wire to each of your pies)

Or you could use PNP = positive switching, although they are less common (electrons flow throw negative terminal ya know)

Anyway, it works like this: a transistor has a base, collector and an emitter.
You apply a small current to the base, and it basically turns the switch 'on/off'

A transistor is basically a component made up of 1 or more digital switches.

They cost about $0.02c instead of $ for your relays and are about a 5th the size of your little fingernail...

A billion circuits and references on google. Don't ever go to wiki for electronics info you want to learn its too full of general crap lol

Maybe check this out:
http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/transistor/tran_4.html

Or just do a search on "transistor switch circuit" or, NPN circuit etc.

Here's something sneaky mate.... For your speed control you could use a 555 timer setup as monostable. Then with a momentary push button, when the long arm of the law grabs you, you could push the button and it would enable your speed reduction/throttle switch circuit for a set amount of time. So even if they go around pushing all the buttons, you know in your head its gunna take 26mins or whatever you set the resistor values to for your timer.

Sounds like you're into electronics, and I bet you would grasp transistors from the above link in a jiffy. If you want to look into that 555 timer mention I said above, try searching for "555 one shot" and "555 monostable" and this should present sites with circuits that allow you to switch something for a set period of time, or on/off via a momentary button.

Cheers mate

[DirtyGinge]

Hi Monkey

Yes indeed I like to tinker a lot, but its like all things, new concepts would be grasped a lot quicker if someone just broke it down to simple english , so many times ive come across this in it with engineers in my team...all it takes is to break down a problem to the level of language of the person you are talking to, but the "seasoned" engineers love to talk tech........leaving a blank expression on the target audience

with the throttles, timer is also a good one......I thought of reed switches in the handlebar grips, with magnet in the cycling gloves, no hand on bar, no throttle pass through....

So is the idea of switching the negative instead of positive due to current flow ? NPN has a reduced load over a PNP ?

regards

[DirtyGinge]

So ...moving forwars....the power line


There are 2 options with the power line....listed as left and right
Now as im not a budding millionaire like gary, I could not afford 2 cycle analyst, so the right config only allows for 1, readings to be doubled

The trouble with the left config, is that the 2 or 3 batteries used must be very closely matched, otherwise instead of feeding the wheels, they will be spending their time balancing out the weak one /each other

Also, all batteries must be charged to the same level before connection, or they will be picking bits of you up of the pavement . sidewalk

This is no joke !!!!! you do not want to connect a full battery to an empty one, a 48 volt discharge at 50-60 amps from one battery to another could be lethal if you have no fuse in line !!!!!!

p.s. diode blocking is not an option, as it will block regen current, and blow your controllers ....

[GM Canada]

Now as im not a budding millionaire like gary.

Hahaha, lol, If only you knew the truth, very funny! I just have the advantage (or is it a dissadvantage?) of inventory. I can just go grab anything desired of the shelf and no one stops me at the door. Seems like everything is free!

Gary