Help to decide!

[SergeyAU]

Hi everyone!
Looking at all the options, need some expert advise on what to choose:
- weight: 94kg
- bike: 700c hybrid bike
- distance: 25km x 2
- country: Australia
- terrain: mostly flat, some small hills

Still searching for more information about different ebike parts...
1. Anyone had problems importing to Australia? (full kit including battery)
2. What battery size should I get? Like the one in a lockable box (not so big)
3. 24v-36v-48v?
4. Which motor to get? Magic pie sounds (pun) loud =) What wattage?
5. Rear or front wheel motor? Any difference in performance?
6. Any other useful information that I need to know? =)

Thanks

[MonkeyMagic]

Hey Sergey welcome mate

Where abouts are you in Oz? I'm in Melbourne myself

No issues at all importing to Australia. Shipped through EMS I've never paid any duty even in excess of $1000. But a single kit won't have any problem

Tipping you are wanting this for a commute to work? If so, and you have a few hours in between rides you could go for any size battery I guess (so you can charge it in between)

The voltage of the battery however, will affect the speed you wish to go. Being in Australia we are limited to 25km/h and max continous power rating of 200W, no offence and I think it's the ignorance of the road laws too, but 200W will not move a 94kg person very far and fast at all.... Lol

In April last year a recent decision for Australian police officers was to concentrate on petrol assisted bicycles and there was no training nor testing equipment issued for electric bicycles at this point. So literally all you have to say is "my motor is 200W" and they can't test the bike any further. Same goes for drink driving, you cannot be breath tested randomly, only if you are riding like a tool. So as long as you are sensible you will never have a problem with the law. My dual drive goes around 40km/h and I still have pink lycra fairies fly past me at 60+ so unless you are popping monos with your wheel spinning the police probably won't know what you are riding. Probably just think you have strong legs

You really have a couple of options regarding motor choice... Just say for example you wanted to get the full ~50km (2 x 25km) and you don't have many hills - a front mini motor will be a good option with the 36v battery on a rear seat post rack.

Having a front motor  means you can change the tyre really easily if need be, and by swapping the front wheel and removing your battery rack, your bike is back to normal again (a real hybrid hehe)

If you don't mind about weight, and want power (or top speed) to get where you want faster - then the MagicPie wheel is definitely an option I wouldn't say they are that loud. I own a few different hub motor types and this 2000W scooter hub I have is heaps louder than the pies so I put it down to power. They are not light though...

I guess if I was building another bike and had to do it all again I would definitely choose a front motor, probably the freewheeling mini motor with a rear battery rack.

It's getting pretty wet and crazy weather in Australia too so some balloon tyres (so your bike is amphibious) or some cyclone resistant headlights could be an option too



MM

[SergeyAU]

Thanks for the welcoming, mate =)
I am from Perth... Got some fires yesterday... Need that wet weather...
Good news on importing =) I guess, as long as I don't order 2 batteries (don't know what they will consider resale items - more than 1)

Yeah, planning to travel to from work - about 25km away. Just not fit enough to do it the conventional way (pedaling). M`ight do it eventually, but need this extra resource, so that I can start building up on the distance. I can charge the battery at work - true, just need a good, reliable battery to get me at least one way. Just been reading the forum about the GM batteries with issues... A bit hard to fork out $400 for something that will last just a couple of weeks...
But back to the battery size. MP wheels, as I read, can take different types of batteries. But reading the efficiency chart, does not look too  impressive at low power (if I am reading the charts correctly). Apart from the speed, will the voltage impact the torque? Is it better to get 48v than 36?

Now, the motor. Unless I am going for the MP (is it v2 now?), what would be the best choice for my type of bike + my weight in terms of most efficient (less battery drain, but good torque). Not really planning to go 70kmh on those thin rims (700c). Also, front or rear wheel? Any difference in performance? Apart from the weight, is MP a better choice? It will provide enough power for any weight, but at the battery's expense. What is the drainage like on MP?

From experience (I don't know what type of batts you use), what is the actual distance will it take me? Is there a formula for ah/power/weight=distance calculation? Will 12/14Ah 36v battery, and say MP on a light-ish bike take me 25km to work realistically? Or should I be looking at those huge 20Ah+ batteries?

And finally. Should I be looking at the local supplier for the battery's warranty, given a number of threads in regards to the quality of GM's batteries.

Cheers

Sergey

PS:
Whats the difference between the 2 motors that GM sells?
Model: MBG36F -- Mini Front Motor and Model: HBS36F -- Front Motor
While I was typing it I saw it - MBG36F - only 250W. The later on is 500W. Do you think the first one (250W) is enough?

[Andrew]

the 250w will just assist your pedalling.

As far as I understand the MP is an efficient motor and on the flat should manage 25km on a charge with either a 36v/16ah batt or the 48/12. No need for a monster 48/20.

If your journey is mainly flat you will probably get a better top speed from the 1000w HBS motor rather than  a pie. 

I have only tried the Magic Pie so I am only guessing with the above. 

My experience,   Magic Pie on rear with a 48/12 GM battery on rear rack makes the front of the bike very light, but it still functions ok. You maybe better getting front wheel motor with battery on back which will help balance the bike, there will be no performance difference.   As far as voltage goes I think the 36/16 may give you more range, the 48/12 may give a little more speed? but this is just the opinion of an internet pundit who has not tested this out.

By the way, I have a front and rear pies wired to together to one 48/12 battery. I highly recommend it.
If  you are having problems getting a kit in Oz  then GoldenMotor Canada(Gary) on here may get  a kit droped to you straight from China, and dealing with him is a lot easier than dealing with China for many reasons.

Andrew

[SergeyAU]

Still puzzled about the wattages. Andrew, are you saying that 1000w motor is a minimal requirement to go on semi-flat surface @ 25km/h max? With the battery (36/16) it kind of works out to be 30min tops, so would take me only 12-14km. 36/16 as I understand it, would take me one way to work upto a max of 500w motor....

Can anyone else comment on the motor/battery/weight/speed/distance from personal experience? I really should start a poll or something.

[MonkeyMagic]

Hey mate

Furthest I've travelled that I clocked was 46km using a 16" cast wheel and 48v12Ah battery. Wheel set at max values. I haven't really gone a full length discharge since then. I'll get some numbers happening when I get my bike back on the road now its all metered.

With the MagicPie wheel, you can buy a USB cable to program its parameters. So you can set this to values that suit your speed/range/power requirements.

You can do the same with the mini motor or any others using the external Cruise Controller - having said that, I guess Andrew and myself were pointing toward a MagicPie as yes you can still change the settings, but has a much higher room for power should you want it.

You never know, having your ebike you might consider towing your shopping home, or a couple of slabs of VB at least

About the power, I have a folding ebike that has a 180W rated wheel (it peaks at 220W lol) and it goes 23km/h its 24V and has sealed batteries. So with bigger wheels yes 25km/h is possible with around 200W but it takes a long time to get there and you feel yourself shaking the handlebars trying to go faster haha

If you just want 25km/h on a flat, the mini motors will be fine. I mentioned them as they freewheel and you said you would be pedalling. Just say your batteries went flat, it's much easier to pedal a mini motor home than a Magic Pie hub. Pedaling a direct drive hub motor is not fun at all, even less fun with 2 of them...

There are pros and cons with them both, it's really your decision. Both of them can be set to cope with legal speed but have their ups and downs. Here, I'll list a couple then it's really up to you as you will be riding the thing Even if everyone pointed toward one product it still might not be best suited for you

MagicPie: ^Ups
Powerful, chomps hills with little to no assist
Internal controller option = simple wiring and neater
Easy to install, choosing a front motor will be a easy solution
Wiring from axle comes from the middle, not the end of the axle

MagicPie: _Downs
Heavy, not fun to pedal
Higher stress to wheel rim due to weight
Stands out...

MiniMotor: ^Ups
Discrete
Geared for torque, with freewheel mechanism so there will be no resistance when you pedal or go downhill
Very lightweight

MiniMotor: _Downs
Trying to take off too quick unassisted you will chew the internal gears
Any hill around or over 15-20% gradient will most likely need pedal assist
Cable protrudes out of the side of the axle, can be susceptible to damage if knocked.
Needs external controller = more wires around your bike to maintain.

Anyways good luck with your decision mate.

Cheers

[SergeyAU]

Thanks, MonkeyMagic for some great points.

Tough decision =)
When are you getting your bike on the road? Are you going MP way? Would be interested to know...
Now, I saw that mini motors come in different varieties. What happened to GM 500w minis? Are they still produced? 250w I have to agree - too small for me. Also saw a few on eBay going up to 1000w. Don't know about sellers/warranty though...

You said that I can program MP via USB. What type of things can be programmed? I am interested to know, if it is possible to program it to say 500w and make sure that the efficiency is around that mark (say, on 250w minis, its most efficient around 140w).

Thank, mate! Hope to join the ebikers gang soon =)

[DirtyGinge]

Hi there

You can limit the motors via usb all the way down as far as you want, but as there is no gears, the efficiency cant be changed....also bear in mind there is no freewheel, so you do have to pedal against the motor if no power is applied, feels kinds like always going uphill...

Still I do 50 miles a day on mine, big hilly areas......no mini motor could cope with the stress.....just because the motor can do 750W, doesnt mean you have to...the cycle analyst for instance is good at limiting, and you can change the settings whilst riding

I thought about the 250W, bu the truth is that it would be running 100% all of the time on the specific journey I had to do, so wouldnt have lasted long

( passed 1500 miles on my pies yesterday)

[SergeyAU]

Thank you, dirtyGinge
50 miles a day that you do - is that on 1 battery? Can you describe your rig - motor, battery, controller.
Having no freewheel... Bummer! Is that on all hub motors? Or just the MP?
What is the difference between MP and standard hub motor of say 500w (apart from that you can get the MP to whatever you like at custom voltages)?

I want to start on something... Easy to manage... Before I upgrade =) But something that works and allows pedaling for a few km (to the nearest train station) in case the batteries die on me... Since mini motors is out of the question (idea - can you have 2? Front and rear going to the same battery? Would it work?), what is my next best choice? MP or something like 500w hub motor? (please advise on the size)

Also, what is the story with different voltages of MP? I thought you could program it yourself? Or is it just for ease of use (for those that cannot do it themselves)?

Cheers

[Andrew]

changing the voltage settings on the MP does not really do anything noticable - or it didn't in my case.
Joining up two  250w mini motors sounds like a great idea. I have not read of anyone on here doing it, so perhaps you could be the first

Get two 36v motors, two external controllers etc. wire to one throttle and one 36/16 battery.

Is that possible with the mini motors? same as it is with the MP? I don't see why not


By the way, you can pedal with the larger motors but there is resistance against the motor


Andrew

[GM Canada]

Hi everyone!
Looking at all the options, need some expert advise on what to choose:
- weight: 94kg
- bike: 700c hybrid bike
- distance: 25km x 2
- country: Australia
- terrain: mostly flat, some small hills

Still searching for more information about different ebike parts...
1. Anyone had problems importing to Australia? (full kit including battery)
2. What battery size should I get? Like the one in a lockable box (not so big)
3. 24v-36v-48v?
4. Which motor to get? Magic pie sounds (pun) loud =) What wattage?
5. Rear or front wheel motor? Any difference in performance?
6. Any other useful information that I need to know? =)

Thanks

Hi Sergey, This actually was an email and I decided to paste it in here since you asked me this in email as well

You have options, really any kit would do. It all depends on how much you want to pedal. All of the kits below have programmable controllers. If you are trying to be street legal you can adjust the maximum power, speed, etc.

Pro 902 kits.
If you want freewheel you have to go with 2 mini motors. Light riders do one motor and still have to pedal to keep from striping the planetary gears as they are only plastic. If your battery dies you can pedal with no resistance. Not sure if these motors can handle it for your situation unless you pedal a lot. One bonus about the mini motors is you can go further than the larger motors as you can’t eat up your power as fast.

All the motors below have resistance when pedaling with no power. The bigger the motor the more resistance. None of these you would have to pedal with unless you taking off or going uphill. The reason you do this is to save battery power. If you pedal every time you take off you can go a lot further.

PRO 901  Kits - Tried and true motors.
These are 36v500, 36v750, 48v1000 motors. Honestly I would say unless you are trying to be 500 watt street legal or something with off road power at 48v1000.I would go for a Magic pie. Some people still like the 48v1000 because they are faster than a Magic Pie at 48v.


Newest Design - Magic pie - Run any voltage 24-36-48
Can be with internal or external controllers.
As for the distance, You are asking the tough questions, I could say “Oh yeah you can do that distance no problem!”. But the reality is you are at the limits of the capability of one of these kits can do a round trip. The distance you are traveling you will have to pedal quite a bit or charge at work as well or get two batteries . Everyone brags their batteries will do 50 kilometers, but the reality is we are not all 60kg riders. Actually I’m not sure if anyone here is?  I’m heavy so is my bike and my gear.
My ride is 32k to work and back. Uphill to work, downhill home. I have a rolling weight with my trailor and gear of over 200kg. I do it with two Magic Pies, two 48v12ah batteries and no peddling.
I hope this helps..


Gary
I’m attaching a picture of my bike in case you haven’t seen it in the forum

[GM Canada]

( passed 1500 miles on my pies yesterday)

Hey Ginge,

I was just thinking, You do have a dual pie but I don't recall ever seeing it.

Gary

[Andrew]

Hiya Gary,
i've just been on your website pricing up a dual mini motor kit with a 36v/10ah frog battery.

i know this is purely theoretical,   but.....   with full continuous throttle and pedalling on flat how much range would your estimate for this set-up?

[GM Canada]

Hiya Gary,
i've just been on your website pricing up a dual mini motor kit with a 36v/10ah frog battery.

i know this is purely theoretical,   but.....   with full continuous throttle and pedalling on flat how much range would your estimate for this set-up?

Oh boy, your asking me? Hmmm... here are some numbers I cut out of one of my pages. These are based on it requiring 250w of power to maintain 32kph on level ground. Of course this does not acount for wind, uphill, stop, start , unusual weight, etc.

(48V X 12AH / 250W ) X 32KPH = 73.728K
(36V X 16AH / 250W ) X 32KPH = 73.728k
(36V X 10AH / 250W) X 32KPH = 46.08k
(24V X 16AH / 250W) X 32KPH = 49.152
(24V X 10AH / 250W) X 32KPH = 30.72k

[Andrew]

thanks for the stats

So, if choosing a dual drive kit option on your website does it include battery cables if not buying a battery?   there is an option to choose a battery cable?