Author Topic: How do you order one? I mean, the WHOLE kit including the battery?  (Read 10040 times)

Offline Grunchy

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So I was looking around at options for e-bike conversions and now my interest is really piqued for golden motor, especially because of the low cost & the brushless construction.

I tried the configurator on the web page and from what I've read so far, what I really want is the nearly-default 26" front wheel, 36V/500W, standard controller, thumb throttle, no pedelec, delivery to Canada and it tells me that's worth $343 including shipping.

I still have to check the spacing of my fork since it is a suspension fork and it probably will not match, so that will probably decide it right there...

However, the big thing missing from the kit is the battery: how do you get a battery & 36V charger?  Because there is no paypal button for the battery that I can find.  And what good is that kit without a battery?

Also, just how good is this thing?  I really like the idea of the brushless pancake motor, but the whole package seems cheep because of the worthless tire & rim, worthless 5 spd cluster for rear wheel, light gauge wiring, problems people are having with optional regenerator & pedelec, build problems such as loose spokes, backwards-wired chargers, getting shipped the wrong thottle control, crummy packaging, etc.  It's like all you really want is the motor (front wheel), controller, wiring harness, and thumb throttle & supply the rest yourself!!

Another red flag is the fact that it has no brace against a fork or chain stay or something: it reacts torque merely by being tightly bolted on.  Well, it is probably good enough for 99.9% of the time but I can see it having problems if a nut ever started to loosen off, because the hub would spin in the dropouts & twist the wire apart in no time.  Or am I missing something?

Why do I get the impression that this product isn't very well developed yet?  And there's no way that harness or controller are water proof.  And why shouldn't they be?

Etc.  Not meaning to be negative but I just hate cheap stuff that falls apart at the tiniest provocation.  I think I would HATE to live in China if that's really the way it is.

(My bike is a Chinese bike that is awesome, but only because of the western quality control it was built under).

Offline philf

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Re: How do you order one? I mean, the WHOLE kit including the battery?
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2008, 01:03:00 PM »
I think the cheapness factor was what was offputting to myself, initially.  But after reading the forums, here, as well as looking at the alternatives (and the stories people had about THOSE), and seeing the result in motion (thanks to YouTube), I decided this was a GREAT value.  Even if you have to spend a coupla hundred bucks extra to make it sing.  One comment I saw consistently is that even the more expensive motors from other sources still come with equally cheap peripherals (throttle, etc.).

I can't speak for the front wheel kit (I still don't like the idea), but the rear wheel kit DOES come with some heavy keyed washers which will definitely stop the motor from spinning in the forks.  Everybody complains about the rim and tire they give you, but a decent rim with double-wall construction, spoke eyelets and machined sidewalls can be had for $35.  I don't know what a bike shop would charge to relace the wheel for you if you don't know how, but a good wheelwright can usually knock the job off in just over an hour.  And a perfectly serviceable Kenda tire and tube can be had at Canadian Tire for just over $20.  You can spend more if you can really tell the difference (there are tire snobs out there), but Kenda is what came on our Giant comfort bikes, and they've been great.

Why batteries aren't offered with the kit...

I would think the two biggest reasons would be shipping weight, and possible complaints...  Despite all of the talk about NiMH, NiCad, and various flavours of Lithium-based (expensive) batteries running about, the most common battery used in this application is still the SLA.  They're inexpensive, and do the job just fine.  But they're heavy.  I've put together two SLA packs (three 12V batteries each), one being 9Ah and the other 12.  The former weighs about 17 pounds, and the latter 26.  Pretty beefy.  SLAs are great batteries for the dollar, but do best in applications where they are discharged over several hours and aren't consistently run to exhaustion.  But they CAN be deep cycled repeatedly (as is the case with an e-Bike), and will perform just fine on the quicker discharge - though they'll deliver a bit less than their rated capacity.  Still - their life can be short.  You might get a season out of them before buying new ones depending on how you use them (they won't fail, but you'll notice they just don't hold as much of a charge as they used to, and the decision to replace them will be elective rather than necessary).  And I'm sure THAT'S the reason a lot of e-Bike kits don't come with batteries.  Someone who uses the bike a lot for LONG runs where the battery is completely spent when they get home is bound to feel ill-used and complain when they're told they need new batteries in a matter of months.  I'd like to know how people make out with these cheapie Schwinn electric bikes that Canadian Tire is selling.  24 volt system with SLA batteries, and not a lot of capacity (meaning you're likely to run them down more often than not)... and the replacement packs start at $129.  These bikes are almost a loss-leader to sell batteries, if you ask me :-)

Where to buy SLAs?  Anywhere that sells electronic components.  One thing I did note, though...  And forgive me - this is going to be the THIRD time I've mentioned Canadian Tire in one post (I'm really NOT Ted Simonette, wanting his old gig back) - they carry replacement batteries for an inflatible watercraft they sell (A Sea-Doo product that inflates into the shape of a jetski).  The unit is a 12V, 12Ah SLA designed for deep cycle use in the boat...  They sell these for $39 each.  Haven't tried 'em, but it seems like a safe bet and the price is in the middle of the pack to what you can pay for a battery of this capacity.  You need THREE of them, remember.

There is a trade-off, here.  My thinking is that small batteries with "just enough" capacity for your usage pattern - this, in order to save weight - is likely to result in more frequent replacement.  Buying a bigger battery that you only need to "top up" when you get home will give you a lot better service life.  The proof will be in the pudding as I compare the 9Ah pack to the 12.

A battery charger comes with the kit.  I don't trust it.  I think it might be an OK fast charger for batteries of a different technology (don't know), but after having monitored it on SLAs, I can tell you that it is inclined to WAY overcharge them, and doesn't seem to control charge current and voltage adequately toward the end of the cycle.  You certainly shouldn't be able to HEAR your electolyte bubbling when you start to approach a full charge.  I've got another kit on the way, so I'll see if that charger does something different, but I've also ordered another battery charger that I'm more comfortable with...  See http://www.vdcelectronics.com/batteryminder_36v_1_3a.htm.

Apart from being a decent multi-phase charger (with a reasonable maximum charge current of 2.7A), it's also alleged to incorporate a patented "reconditioning" technology that claims to de-sulphate the plates by running a high frequency, low-voltage, signal through the batteries while in maintenance mode.  Maybe the effect is something like an ultrasonic jewelry cleaner, but different - dunno.  It also comes with an optional temperature sensor which you can attach to the batteries.  If something heats up, it'll shut down.  Good feature.  And, by registering the warranty, they also send you a little battery condition guage for free.  A neat goo-gah to quickly look at individual batteries in the pack (don't connect it across the whole 36V array :-).

Anyways, a charger that I can plug in and walk away from (and leave the batteries connected to indefinitely) is what I was after.  This seems to be it.

So - as for the whole kit, and your question, "is it any good?"  Leaves a bit of margin for interpretation, but from this guy's perspective, it's good value.

FWIW.

Cheers!




Offline Grunchy

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Re: How do you order one? I mean, the WHOLE kit including the battery?
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2008, 11:56:58 AM »
Wow, thank you for all the info!

Funny enough I just spent a bunch of moola on some 6V SLA batteries so I know what you're talking about (I recently found a couple used fisher price power wheels cars... heh lotsa fun for 5-yr old!)

I measured my front forks and they are 103mm apart +/-, so I guess I'd have to get a couple of 9mm thick washers for the 85mm front hub motor -- I guess I could scrounge up something for that.

Well, all I'm waiting for is somebody to buy my car & I think I'm going to take the plunge!

By the way, what about waterproof: can I splash through a puddle without zapping the motor?  Do I have to wrap up the controller or throttle with plastic bags if it rains outside?  Heck even that 36V charger you mentioned is claimed to be waterproof!

Lastly: well I'm sorta stuck with the front wheel kit on my bike, because it's a dekra shaft-drive!  I scored a real zinger deal from Amazon at Christmastime for just under $200, Free Delivery if you can believe it!!  So it's got a hub shifter on the back wheel that cannot work with the motor.  Actually it seems to be the perfect bike to electrify, first because it only has 3 speeds anyway and is a bit of a dog from that standpoint, second because there is ZERO maintenance on the drive train on this thing, you know?  I think with the motor it could really be a daily-driver!


Oh hey I just found that battery you mentioned, that is a pretty good deal!
http://www.canadiantire.ca/browse/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524443290157
"Sea-Doo Replacement Battery, Product #79-3939-4 $39.99, 12V 12Ah lead acid rechargeable battery"
« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 12:59:16 PM by Grunchy »

Offline philf

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Re: How do you order one? I mean, the WHOLE kit including the battery?
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2008, 12:07:04 PM »
Wow.  That Dekra D-Drive system is really a neat piece of engineering...

If you haven't read all of the cautions elsewhere, though, be warned...  If your front forks are alloy, you might want to think carefully about putting on a front wheel kit.  The torque from these motors is pretty good, and if you think about it - your bike isn't designed to be pulled along by the front wheel.  There have been reports of people having their front forks fail under this unintended stress.  Steel forks are OK, and your mileage MAY vary with alloy (depending on construction, and whether the forks have shocks, etc.).  It was just one more thing that I found off-putting about the front wheel solution.

The major benefits of the front wheel solution, though, are hard to ignore - better weight distribution, and not having to sacrifice your rear drive system.  If you have a nice gear cassette and decent derailleur on the back, it's much nicer not to have screw that up.

The hub motor itself is pretty water resistant (don't blast it with a hose or ford any rivers with the thing) - the electronics come in an aluminum extrusion that's been siliconed at all of the points where water might get in, but the connectors are all external.  After assessing the heat generated by the transistors in the unit, I decided it was safe to keep the controller (and all of its attendant connectors) inside the same waterproof rear carrier bag as the batteries.

One note, here...  The rib onto which the 12 transistors are mounted is screwed to the inside of the aluminum case from the outside (and the screw heads heavily siliconed).  I took the thing apart because I wanted to know what was in there.  I would have been happier to see some sort of heat sink compound between the rib and the case to help conduct the heat, but there isn't any.  Probably overkill, but I added some anyways.

I put together a little box to connect to the batteries which contains a plug for the controller, a decent fuseholder, and a power switch (the kit comes with no "on/off" switch - you just unplug it or yoink the battery lead to power off).  There is room in the aluminum box to house a switch and fuseholder, and there are actually two useful LEDs on the controller board that would be more useful if they were visible.  One shows that the system has power, and the other blinks - its cadence changing with activity from the motor controller.

If I do this mod, I'll post a picture of what it looks like.




Offline OneEye

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Re: How do you order one? I mean, the WHOLE kit including the battery?
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2008, 05:18:47 PM »
If you forge ahead on an alloy fork you will definitely want to invest in some torque arms.

Offline Grunchy

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Re: How do you order one? I mean, the WHOLE kit including the battery?
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2008, 06:46:53 PM »
Hi.. I hadn't read any stories about problems with front-wheel drive yet, but actually I did not even think it should be a problem.

Well, the thing is, using the brakes can be just as stressful as the drive, and of course the front brakes do the majority of the work.  So if anything, I sort of assume the forks should easily be adequate for drive irregardless of their construction, & suspension fork or not.  Is that out to lunch?? ???  Those dekra forks use V-brakes but also have a disc brake mount, so I presume they should be strong enough to work with a disc brake & thereby strong enough for the drive.

The torque arms I can definitely agree with, I have fear of that motor spinning in the dropouts & ruining the cord... what's a good solution to use for a torque arm?  Is there something you can just buy & have it work?

Offline OneEye

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Re: How do you order one? I mean, the WHOLE kit including the battery?
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2008, 02:59:16 PM »
Unfortunately there aren't many available solutions for torque arms.  A lot of people wind up fabbing their own setup.  Do a search here and on the Endless Sphere forums to see what DIY and commercially available solutions are out there.