Connecting a Ping Battery to the Magic Pie

[MonkeyMagic]

Leslie dude get some sleep!

I guess it is hard sleeping knowing your Pies are on the way..... would make you pretty hungry for them omm yomm yommm

[Leslie]

317537 you are right about the Ping copies and cheaper brands, but I do find Ping batteries very expensive for what they are. VPower do a cheaper one that is 15ah but I do not know how reputable they are?

I think you would be lucky getting 20 to 25 amps out of the GM controller, I could not coax more than 15 amps no matter what setting I did with the USB port. Had to bridge the shunt on mine, although I went over the top with over a hundred amps on take off.... but man did it take off he he.

100 amps.  Wow the Pie certainly can suck up some power.  Yeah I ordered tow MP's and Gary GM Canada tested my hubs and they get 25 amps out of the box.

I think there is some variations from one Pie to another.  We may have found some poor solder connections in one controller and I suspect some of the stock GM mini motor controller are being shipped with the Pies.  They may of got mixed up or the person putting the kit together isnt aware that maybe some of the controllers are limited to protect the mini motor.

ATM its all a bit confusing as to what is going on.  Too many 15 amp on the mark controllers to suggest just errors in PCB soldering.  15 amps is the suggested max for the min imotor.

To much coincidence IMO.

The vpower is not too much different than the ping in performance.  I think where Ping wins over Vpower is he is very good with support and warranty claims.

I was reading a post at V is for Voltage, where one chap's Ping pack caught fire and he had to call the fire department to put it out. Not a good thread for Ping.  However the fire depo had to take his pack away and left him with a burnt looking bike, he was lost as to what to do.

A failed Ping pack and no pack to prove warranty!  Well he took some pics of the damage and sent them onto Ping and Ping gave him a new one.

Well I hope my pack doesnt go up in smoke but Ping saved his reputation by replacing the pack under what some would call unusual circumstances.

I think this is sort of what you pay for with a Ping pack.

[Leslie]

Leslie dude get some sleep!

I guess it is hard sleeping knowing your Pies are on the way..... would make you pretty hungry for them omm yomm yommm

Yeah I need to cook the dinner for the family then I try watch some boring thing on TV and I will drop like a log.

While I am waiting for chicken to cook I just made my water proof controller switch for that 60 amp latching relay you linked me to. The new auto precharge main power relay for the MP is going to be sooo much better then my first attempt/.

 

[MonkeyMagic]

Hey mate

You just reminded me! My apologies, I don't think I replied to your post about triggering the relay.

I use a PIC to pulse the pin via a transistor. It's set at 100ms to compensate for temperature, works a charm. I went that way because I was using the PIC for switching other things. You could do the same thing with a momentary and cap just like you have previously posted, or a monostable trigger from a 555. Or you could do what I'm wiring up now so you don't have to worry about switches and keys

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250590394220&viewitem=

haha I'm still laughing while hooking this up

[o00scorpion00o]

317537 you are right about the Ping copies and cheaper brands, but I do find Ping batteries very expensive for what they are. VPower do a cheaper one that is 15ah but I do not know how reputable they are?

I think you would be lucky getting 20 to 25 amps out of the GM controller, I could not coax more than 15 amps no matter what setting I did with the USB port. Had to bridge the shunt on mine, although I went over the top with over a hundred amps on take off.... but man did it take off he he.

I had a Cyclone 900W kit before this pie and used it with a 36V 15ah Ping battery that seemed to cope really well until I realised that I was using 30 to 40 amps on it average, no way the Ping could take that strain. The Magic Pie is so much more economical with the battery. Even with my over the top mod now on my Pie I still only use 0.5 amps a mile, and once it gets to 25mph the amps drop right down to 15amps again?

You will be happy with the Magic Pie wheel just get a good battery source for it. I still think the Ping will be ok for a while if you don't accelerate from stop using just the motor....peddal then motor and save up for another Ping.

yes exactly as I was saying. Once up to speed the pie's current draw backs off to around  15-18 amps on level ground!

I would not buy from Vpower. My first kit came with a Vpower battery and It was supposed to be a 20amp battery after 14-15 amps it died. So it was not capable of 20 amps. I also took a hit on resale to Pat as I had to tell him it was only a 15 amp pack!  Also it was larger and 5kg heaver than my ping! Also they were only good for 1C max! I don't know if VPower have improved, but from reading other forums, I think the general conclusion is to stay away from VPower!

At the end of the day we are not talking about some cheap 60 dollar controller here. If you buy the wrong battery you are stuck with it. And it will cost you a few hundred dollars. It's too big a price to pay to get it wrong. Ping makes good batteries and I can vouch for him, yes people have had problems with them, but he always replies to emails and he will always fix a problem!

Magzy I think you made a good choice with your ping. If you want you can set cruise at say, 14-15mph then peddle and you will greatly assist your motor and battery. If you want you can also use it full throttle as 15-20 amps will be your cruising power anyway if using internal or external controller. And won't be too stressful for the ping. Your 14kms trip will not be too much for it either!

Regarding your decision in either internal or external controller. If you order internal controller and you have problems with your controller, you will have to take your motor apart and solder in a new one. If you are capable of this then it's not so bad, just a pain. And it might take you an eternity getting a new one from GM.

If you think you might want more power then you are stuck, as the internal controller will not provide more than around 15-18 amps max.

IF you choose external controller, you will have more wires to try hide. But if things go bad with the controller, you can swap it easier. If you choose external magic controller from GM you will have a limit of 17-20 amps in general by my experiences and a few others. If you want more power you will need a controller from a different manufacturer and also a higher power ping, or buy another 10 amp, but you will need diodes connected to each battery. No big deal. If you go the external route, and you choose a GM magic controller, I would strongly advise buying 2 as they are cheap enough and you don't want to be off the road while you wait for another if one brakes.

I hope this is not too much information Magzy!   

[MonkeyMagic]

Yeah I need to cook the dinner for the family then I try watch some boring thing on TV and I will drop like a log.

While I am waiting for chicken to cook I just made my water proof controller switch for that 60 amp latching relay you linked me to. The new auto precharge main power relay for the MP is going to be sooo much better then my first attempt/.

Hey nice work BTW, I was wondering where you are going to mount the switch? Somewhere sneaky? Like under the seat and route the wires through the seat pole or something?

[Leslie]

Those lights are awesome and loud. I guess thats the point.  LOL car will miss you then run into each other looking at this bedazzling bike zooming past them.

I would wonder about the legality of such attractive accessories.  I think they serve the point of safety to the rider in a nut shell but the Boys in blue may see the hypnotic light spectrum spectacle differently.

I would really love to see your build and how its going.  You really have done some great work so far and I mean this sincerely.

To give folks and idea what these Monkey Electric Lights are about.  Take a look at this guys..



 

Yeah under the seat so it can be switched off when I stand the bike and it wont look like I switch anything.  I could do the remote thing or key switch but I lose keys and stuff too much.

[Magzy]

If you think you might want more power then you are stuck, as the internal controller will not provide more than around 15-18 amps max.

IF you choose external controller, you will have more wires to try hide. But if things go bad with the controller, you can swap it easier. If you choose external magic controller from GM you will have a limit of 17-20 amps in general by my experiences and a few others. If you want more power you will need a controller from a different manufacturer and also a higher power ping, or buy another 10 amp, but you will need diodes connected to each battery. No big deal. If you go the external route, and you choose a GM magic controller, I would strongly advise buying 2 as they are cheap enough and you don't want to be off the road while you wait for another if one brakes.

I hope this is not too much information Magzy!   

Not at all - this is perfect info - the more the merrier!
With  regards to the controller I have two options

1. External: With regards to the wires and stuff I'm aiming to get a back rack with two courier type panniers. One  to keep the battery in a foam mould to fit the bottom of the bag along with the controller. Another bag on the other side for stuff as a sort of counterweight. I'm cool-and-the-gang with shortening wires and re-soldering them - It's also stealthy - which I need If I modit and blow it then no big deal in terms of replacing it.

2. Internal: I like the tidiness and stealthiness of the internal contoller but I know for a fact that I'm going to get addicted to speed and acceleration. I will want to mod this at some point in the future. Now I realise that amping up the controller to 100a will destroy it because of the heat and expansion and contraction on the circuit coupled with the risk of burning out components on the board. Just wondering if anyone has built an effective heatsink for the internal controller? maybe like a PC processor water cooling and an air duct intake with a propper radiator?  In any case, can you buy the MP internal controllers separately from GM or even buy another manufacturers' controller and take out the board and fit it into the innards to the MP? (assuming you have a schematic of the board connections and are reasonably tech savvy)

I really like the GM Pie however. I really really like the fact that GM has this forum with great people who are willing to help n00bs like me out. This has not gone unappreciated folks.

One thing that bothers me is the fact that GM seem poor on getting issues resolved.  I've trawled though this forum and found numerous instances where something has gone wrong (admittedly only a small fraction of end users) but it's taken up to 2 months to sort out with GM. This is unacceptable in my opinion and puts me off.

To put this into perspective, the number one rule of making money in retailing goods and services is retaining and then getting return custom easy if you do a good product like GM.
You're always going to have issues down the line but they need to have a policy of setting the expectation of the user for resolving these. pleasing existing customers because when they complain, they are complaining to the whole world on here and other places and the reputational damage can only be mended if the manufacturer exceeds the expectation of the user - as set out in the policy. The customer will then go out and sing the praises of the manufacturer and that will then draw in unlimited orders from new customers. The ping example of the battery exploding and being replaced is the perfect example of this where the manufacturer has far exceeded the expectations of the customer.

Can I be assured that GM will be of similar standing even if I need to buy a new internal controller?

Thanks,
Magz

[Leslie]

I think the internal controller should be fine with the 10ah pack its not like youre going be be drawing 35 amps out of it to make it too hot in there.

Its just a horror story to trouble shoot and or replace or if some thing goes wrong.

Another thing you may want to do is not use too much regen if any at all.  As this pack is going to take a beating from the Pies regen.

Ping packs are not that great at charging as they are at discharging.  Regn does worry the Ping.

1c charge rate is recommended.

I think maybe less than 1C for regen. Even though Regen isnt that constant and its the heat that is of concern and the cells may get hot when you riding them at 2C, then try charge at on 1C, Would be almost like charging 1.5C~1.75C~2C during heavy regen usage.

Know what I am saying here? 

1C on a wall charger is only 1C constant, the cells can only reach a certain temperature.  But your cells are not seeing any 2C action in that time its plugged into the wall.

[MonkeyMagic]

You really have done some great work so far and I mean this sincerely.

Hey thanks Leslie gee shawks

Cheers well yes I am currently still in the process of some finishing touches on the bike... I didn't really want to start talking about it, but now that I think of it the accessories are getting a bit out of control haha

I'm nearly tempted to post whats going on with it now but I'd rather wait until I finished and take some pics along the way in case others are looking for ideas

Anywho won't be long now until pie time for you yeah?

[Leslie]

You should post what youre doing mate, as we learn more looking at the work in progress rather than looking at the finished product.

Pride has a habit of making us say no I don't want to show until its finished, if you have the time and patients I would like to spend some time with you with this.

Im up to stage two on my power distribution box.

Ive done the relay with 50 amp 250 volt cable and put Anderson poles on it.

Here.



I guess this is what Im hooking up between my Ping pack and MP so its not off topic. Im thinking the box will sit either on top of Ping or in front of it under the seat.

The fuse and cables are rated at 50 amps.  The relay is rated at 60 amps. the power poles are rated at 50 amps. The switch is DPDT centre off MOM.

That relay uses 1 watt of power to switch and takes the blink of an eye to switch it,  It amazing. 1 watt in the blink of an eye to switch 50 amps.  And no more watt needed to keep it there.  It should be easy at that low current rating to put a bipolar electrolytic delay cap over the coil so I must hold the MOM switch down for .5 seconds before it activates the coil.  The DPDT switch will have a resistor running off the on side straight to the controller so as I hold the switch down it allows current into the controller for precharge.  With Precharge that relay should last 20 years and never have any issues.  I could then use ultracaps for regen or something knowing that they aint going to kill the switch.

Yummy ultra caps can gets you more than 50 amps max if you wants, and save some hit on the Ping if they are diode blocked and shunted to stop ping from charging them too fast, then leave them open to regen and the controller.  Great for that quick discharge take offs require.

Its a lil boxy though more stuff will be going in it.

The CA molded shunt will connect to the black cables and its rated at 45 amps. And I just hand wound an L100 inductor to go for the 3.2v 3 amps DC to DC converter for the cree clone lights.  I have to build another switcher as my 12v one is only made to do 1 amp 12v.

Im not sure if I will put an alarm on the bike like you.  But that would save a lock and key.  Either way Im stuck with some device or key I could loose or drop.  I lead a complicated life.

The ease of a bike alarm loud like yours is attractive, but I will need another DC to DC converter.  How many amps does that alarm pull?

I found a 4 channel IR relay and  key chain switching device.  I fear if I go with something off the shelf the security isnt going to be too good especially if I boast it on the net,

Maybe I will do an RF design using modulated tones as the security,  Make up an LF transmitter and receiver.. I never done radio before.

I may try my hand at voice activation, now this would suit me..  Hmmm.  The alternatives are endless. but mind space I have is limited.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

Looking good leslie.

Was that black thing in your box the dc-dc converter or relay?

I want to get a box like that in black for my ping. It will be secure enough!

[Leslie]

Looking good leslie.

Was that black thing in your box the dc-dc converter or relay?

I want to get a box like that in black for my ping. It will be secure enough!

Its the 60 amp 240v polarized latching relay,  The precharge polarized relay switch will be FAR superior to GM's connect and arc system,  Ill prolly lose my warranty connecting the Pie up to something being NON GM parts and all  .. So for now customrers will have to endure a year of connect and crack before you try this at home kids.

,Ill be making sure I don't have to unplug my pack just to turn the controller off and the controller has to be off before I can put charger to batts.



I couldn't believe GM leave no way to turn all power from the controller to batts.



This is the 60v DC to DC to 12v converters I built,





http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=1566.0

[Leslie]

Actually I have this circuit to mind that will switch the relay off If the bike has not been used for X time.  It will work by making the circuit active when you switch the bike on and load off the throttle keeps the time threshold to max.  When the rider say docent use the throttle for say 30 mins the controller will auto shut down.

[o00scorpion00o]

Yeah I like that idea Leslie, very clever indeed! 

I have noticed that my Anderson's connect and disconnect so much easier now from not sparking. Switches on a controller are a must. I know GM have switches on their batteries, I wonder how long they will last ?