HBS / MW 16B 1000 watt 48v does it do 470 RPM freewheel if so how ?

[Thaialien]

WHO CAN TELL ME ?

[Leslie]

What is your voltage battery pack.

If its 72v there is definitely something fishy. 

[Leslie]

I don't understand your maths. It is not a correct way to measure.  

Done by GPS and back Calculation GPS speed divided by 60 dived by dia. divided by 3.142 gives Rpm OK . (Data Sheets attached email)

say 38kph/60=.663

.633/525=0.0012057142857142857142857142857143

0.0012057142857142857142857142857143/3.1428=3.8364333896979945089910725649557e-4 RPM

That is very slow if this is correct no wonder you sent so many emails.


This picture is for golf cart trike and is 48v it looks like the same as hbs-48v performance to me.



What do you use to measure amps?
What do use to test RPM?

Try this.

48v*17.8 amps= 854.4 watts +10 -10 % tolerance. 5% for wheel and 5% for test meter.  To be fair.

Say your measure is 8% incorrect. 17.8/100%=0.17*x8%=1.424amps possible error.


17.8amps+1.424amps=19.224

Unless you buy professional test equipment you calculation maybe wrong.

48v*19.224amps=922.752 watts.

But battery is 52v when start so it can = 999.648.  Very close to 1000W.



7/22= 3.1428571428571428571428571428571=PI

=3.1428

Diameter*3.143= circumference

525 is 20.6"?

525*3.1428 =1670mm

1.67 meters.

Your speed (what ever that is)*1000=meters per hour


Let us say 38kph*1000 = 38000 meters per hour

38000/60 minutes = 633.3 meters per minute.

633.3/1.67= 379.rpm

If you look at the chart I marked onto it the heaviest load.

I marked In purple what would be normal road performance with about 10 amps and maybe less with 20" wheel

See unless you are stopping the wheel when you ride on a big hill you can not use 1000 watts.  Only 500 to 750 watts depending, how big you are, and how hard your tires are, depending on the road quality, and depending how much wind there is and how aerodynamic your bike and tire is.

Your brakes need to be very good adjusted and you tires need to be pumped with lots of pressure.  This helps much.

Unless you have no resistance on the wheel you can not have 470 rpm.

470 rpm*1.67= 47kph but that is speed very hard to reach with a smaller wheel.


26" wheel on road.


350rpm*2.075.5= 43.575 kph and this is 1000 watts wheel in the chart.

[Leslie]

GM controllers have shunt limit inside them you may have to by pass this with another "10 amp rated" shunt bar to give more amps.



You do this at your own risk and more amps will melt motor with very heavy loads.  

I have one melted motor.

Before

after
 

You should not get too much speed from this wheel with 250kg on the bike.  You risk overheating the motor.  This is a bicycle motor for light weights and has no gears.  GM HBS is for a bicycle and one person so it will never perform as it will for 250kg with similar weight at 20+ amps.

You need 2000 watts IMO for two people.  Maybe use two hubs in dual is better.

[Leslie]

This is the curves you been looking for.

Before we continue tell me what you think of these files.

HBS48 Curves<< Click to view.

HBS48 Data<< Click to view.

Very nice rides you have there.

They do not look like the HBS motors I have.

Does your GM motor look like this?


.

[Leslie]

I look at that web site I would say interesting Ideas hey.

Pedillac Cab  Company http://www.pedillac.com/Home_Page.php


http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=200848#p200848

Quoted from endless sphere by 317537  » Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:14 am in the thread If you had a million dollars to invest in e-bikes

If I had a million dollars to invest in ebikes I would buy myself a fleet of runners and setup by the sea and rent them out to tourists.  I would do tours in trikes like a rickshaw but electrified.  I would sub contract to do tours all over by supplying the ride of a life time to and from where ever that is practical.

Looks like I won the competition. Yay Shame I didnt win anything.  LOL.  One mans Ideas is anothers success.  It's a shame my peers in my local area see me amounting to nothing good.

[Leslie]

 I can cart more weight than two people on a 250 watt motor, but the motor is geared for torque and speed is slower and the wheel is 20".

With a 26" wheel on of my 250 watt, one motor has burnt out, with only one person, and it didn't happen over night, it took 3 weeks of use before it was dysfunctional.

Just because the hub can pull two people doesnt mean it should be done, and because it has been done successfully doesnt mean it's going to be successfull every time on every brand motor.

Those trikes have different wheels than I have seen, they maybe geared or even over rated,  They maybe drawing 30 amps on hill, no real data has been offered to make any proper comparison, ALAS! I have no idea.  You ask for so much explanation yet offer little details.  The kit is supposed to be 1000watts.

I just said to consider tolerances. And offered a possible solution by adding another shunt in your controller.

What motor were the trikes using? are these motors geared? Do the riders need to climb steep grades, is the transport suitable for steep grades?

There are many hills any 500 watt wheel will fail to climb without two people.

I cant answer most of what you ask here as I don't have much data except for your GPS RPM calculations, turned into web link to a tacho meter, 250kg, 48v, 20" wheel, 310 RPM and 17.5 amps and 32kph.  Enough detail here for the GM wheel.  The controller is obviously having a shunt in it.  But wrong to compare with out all the same details or same size gearless BLDC motor.

I get 840 watts you just need more amps.

I have offered a suggestion that you try improve the controller current rating by adding a 10 amp shunt, but I warn you that gearless and 250kg weights do not always do well together, the 20" wheel should give you much torque at the expense of some speed, but your RMP should be higher at 48v. That is normal for a normal bike that weighs 35kg, not 100kgs.  Almost tripled the load those trikes have made.

The wind resistances on a trike like that is a lot and effects the gearless heavily.  Also depends where you ride,

I don't understand

Are expecting a 35kg bike with one rider to perform the same as 100kg wind catching trike with two riders?  These are gealess hubs made to power a single bike and rider in mind, the wind resistances are accounted for to give the single rider optimum performance not a big trike, why you push something that is designed for this purpose more than 3 times what it is intended for and expect the same speed puzzles me.

Maybe a geared motor is better for this job.

[Thaialien]

I think it is a good idea

[Leslie]

Oh its 25 amps now, my bad My previous calculations was based on motor input not based on efficiency.

Still at 85% efficiency at 48v @ 25 amps this equates to 1020 watts true output.

GM can make your controller do 50 amps at 48v making it 2400 watts 2040 watts at 85% efficiency but how many people would want warrnty after a week.  All of them.  Creating a PR nightmare of a 100% product failure rate is not what GM wants.  So maybe they have limited the controller to output 1000 watts for customers protections.

There is reasonable reasons why GM shunt inside the controller and that is to protect newbies from using the software to overload the motor and controller on the first day of use.

This is a golden motor red light and it says STOP!!!!.  Protecting the customer early from making software mistake with software is a good thing.  And I would guess if you keep jamming your motor to a complete stop like this failure is likely, the shunt is made for people that may then be asking so many times why my motor smells like plastic on fire today and the hall sensors have failed from heat.

As I have said, if you want to take the risk then bypass the controller shunt and you can go forth with no more warranty and deem yourself the person responsible to any failure or succeed in making a good trike. If you know your ebike tech then you may well succeed at this modification with no recourse.

[Leslie]

The motor will do exactly what they say.  You must understand it is a test of the motor - Not the controller.

[Leslie]

PDF is of motor test not 1000 watt kit controller test.

Try different controller than GM 1000 watt kit controller to learn the real truth of motor performance..  

[Leslie]

Here are the GM fets in the controller.

http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/stmicroelectronics/9231.pdf

It say one fet can do 120 amps.

Should we send all the fets back to ST microelectronics because the Magic controller has a shunt to protect against derating factor..  Maybe send 100 emails.

GM says 50 amps.  but STM says 120 amps, not fair.  This PDF tests STM does, is it for the GM controller?  IT MUST BE, it says 120 amps on this PDF.

Bad GM put 50 amps on controller when STM say 120 amps.  They must be the same PDF to be fair.  NoT!

Ohh and GM have 20 amps on controller shunt not 50 amps, very bad GM.  Again some very sad customers that do not know how to multipy volts and amps to make watts wreck all their motors, not just one, but all motors, and GM get 9000 emails this year looking for warranties on motors.

Massive headache for GM and customers with usb program cables that still work on a motor worth going into a garbage bin.

Look time to settle down and relax.

[Sundsvall]

I’ve followed this thread and don’t understand why there has to be such bad feelings. I’d really tried to understand what thaialien been arguing about and I guess Leslie has as well. I think this forum is a great place for us electric bicycle nerds to help each other and that most of us can behave. If I had it my way I would give thaialien a chance to say “I’m sorry, promise to behave”, otherwise I suggest he closes his account and directs the shouting at himself. Keep up the good work Leslie.

Yours sincerely
Peter

[Leslie]

Fact is all GM magic controller can do 24v to 48v LVC.

So 24v should do 50 amps and 48v should do 25 amps.  But explain this to 1000's of 16 year old Jonny's looking for a new 48v Ebike this Christmas who want 48v 1000 watt motor running at 50 amps = Controller death.

Maybe us folk who can do the modifications properly don't mind this, but young johnny still has a working bike.


I am happy and Johnny is happy, even if he doesn't understand his new settings at 50 amps is not doing anything.  The internal shunt saved his newbie arse and saved GM an email.



And I has 48 volts @ 25 amps because I know what I am doing.  I tell them the right settings but most some still do not understand and overload and oveheat.  Some are good guys take it on the chin and learn from mistakes and, learn, learn, learn some more. and some are whiney lil babies and learn nothing.

I for one am glad GM put the shunt in there cause things here would be way worse.


Johnny gets a CA and sees I am not getting 50 amps, why?  He come to GM forums and ask why.  He is told he is lucky his controller and motor still works as this setting 50 amps at 48v is way too high.

GM sells to many customers with no idea what to do with volts, amps and watts.  I still like the program cable and I can still have 25 amps if I want.
 

[Thaialien]

PDF is of motor test not 1000 watt kit controller test.

Try different controller than GM 1000 watt kit controller to learn the real truth of motor performance..  

Well why did you not say before that Magic cotrollers are NO Good !