All of a sudden, this happened today.. Help!

[Leslie]

You don't have to any of this. I don't want to put you through a GM repair job for no reason.

Locking the freewheel may help if your controller is still working and may make the bike more reliable when you get it running.  But you then have the gears always engaged.  The gears will wear out more.  I will remind you this was a bafang motror that was discussed.

With every alteration there may be a consequence when you decide to leap from the nest and get your hands dirty.  Electric things go smoke fizz pop.  You still have a good battery, don't you? so make sure you don't go down 3 strike lane.

Anything you can learn will be an asset to the EV community world wide.

A lot of our language are not used as household words, and there is no ebike repair shop up the road.  Every person that joins this fleet of ebikers that balance electrons to make wheels go make the industry.  I guess we end up ebike mechanics or our ride gathers dust in the shed evermore.


A trip down to the local bike store for a repair often leaves the customer nowhere.  Thats the reality check when the bike goes fizz for many of us. You are entering a specialist field of mechanics and you, we, are the recruits.

Great Bikemad post below may help you learn more about the mini.

Trying to explain how a mini geared hub actually works is not going to be very easy, but I'm going to do my best with the aid of these lovely photos that Russell has conveniently posted on the Endless-Sphere forum, and I'm sure he won't mind his pictures being put to good use.

Let's start with the basics:
The stator (containing windings and hall sensors) is permanently fixed to the axle and does not move.
The outer drum of the motor contains a ring of permanent magnets securely attached to its inner surface surrounding the stator.
This drum has a small gear attached to the opposite side (see picture below) and the whole assembly is mounted to the axle by a bearing inside the gear, which allows the whole drum assembly to freely rotate around the fixed axle when power is applied to the windings via the controller.

The stator, axle and drum assembly above make up the basic motor unit.
So we have a motor that can spin freely, but it still needs to transmit its power to the hub and produce enough torque to turn the wheel and drive the bike.
This is cleverly achieved by the use of an epicyclic gear train, which provides a gear reduction between the motor and the hub, which greatly increases the torque (turning force) at the wheel.
The following two pictures show both sides of the intermediate gears (known as the Planet Gears) which are driven by the motor's small gear (the Sun Gear) and are mounted on a unidirectional clutch (a special type of ratchetless freewheel), which is secured onto the axle with a key and slot to prevent the centre piece from turning.
The clutch is very simple and comprises of three cylindrical rollers which are gently held by springs into the narrow end of a wedge shaped opening.
If the gear carrier in the first picture below is turned clockwise, it wedges the rollers between the carrier ring and the centre of the clutch, which effectively causes the carrier to become fixed in relation to the axle and will allow the rotational force to be transmitted between the motor and the hub.
This automatic locking action occurs whenever the motor tries to turn the wheel.
If the carrier is rotated the opposite way, the rollers will simply roll towards the larger end of the wedge shaped opening until the slight spring pressure prevents the friction from pushing the rollers any further.
As they are no longer wedged in, they are unable to transmit any load using the surface friction alone and the rollers will simply slip easily around the centre of the clutch, producing a noiseless and almost frictionless free-wheeling action.
This is how the hub manages to rotate easily, as it does so without having to turn against the resistance of the motor.

The picture below shows the side which faces towards the motor unit.

The outer gear (Ring Gear) is permanently fixed to the inside of the hub, and this allows the drive to be transmitted to the hub itself.


Now have a look at the following diagram and imagine your looking at the wheel from the left hand side.
The small gear in the middle is the motor, which only rotates clockwise when viewed from this side.
The three planet wheels are fixed to the carrier which is only free to rotate anticlockwise, as it will be fixed in relation to the axle when the motor tries to turn it clockwise.
This allows the hub to be driven anticlockwise (forward wheel rotation) by the motor.
If the motor is stopped and the wheel is moving in a forward direction, the hubs outer ring gear will try to turn the three planet gears anticlockwise around the stationary sun gear (it's stationary because the motor is stopped).
The free-wheeling action of the clutch allows the carrier to be freely turned in an anticlockwise direction with very little resistance.
So when you're pedalling without motor assistance, the planet gears will still be rotating, but as there is very little resistance, you're not usually aware of it.

The actual gear ratio is determined by the number of teeth on the sun wheel and the number of teeth on the ring gear.
So for example, if you had 9 teeth on the motor and 90 teeth on the hub you would have a 10:1 speed reduction and a 10x increase in torque!

Frank,

As Muzza and Russell have already mentioned, the motor will spin in reverse, but will not transmit any drive due to the unidirectional clutch in the centre of the gear carrier assembly, which is also why regen doesn't work with these motors.

If you were to fit the wheel backwards, the motor would not be able to drive the bike in a forward direction, but you should have very good regen!  
It's just that it won't be much use as a hubmotor if you can only use it for going backwards and regen!

Alan
 

[Bikemad]

So, where do I find a way to lock the free wheel?

This is the way Russell did it:
View Russells post on Endless Sphere.

Alan
 

[Leslie]

So, where do I find a way to lock the free wheel?

This is the way Russell did it:
View Russells post on Endless Sphere.

Alan
 

Excellent.  LOL JB weld seemed like a quick fix.  Correct me here but do the rollers lock when hub is operational under load?  Would it be prudent to just push some bamboo or something into the rollers and keep them locked.  The pressure required would only be very small.

[Sangesf]

So open up the hub and just be jb weld everywhere?

How do I open it up...
I can see the screws on one side opened those up and am able to take the motor out of the hub, now I just have to figure out how to get the "outside edge" cover to come off.

What about 317537s answer.. Jamming something in those roller spaces? 


Side note: I sent an email to both USA GM retailers asking about a replacement for my currently purchased (3 mos ago) magic controller replacement and still have not recieved a reply.

[Leslie]

Yeah hold the brakes on my idea.

I don't and never have owned on of these.  It was an idea I got by looking at the pics.

The force to hold the rollers in shouldn't need to be so robust IMO, and it would be wise to think about a few ways to do this.

Look around the home, toys and old tools bits and pieces.

It would be good to make your mod un-do-able too.  SO if you want to reagain the free wheel function you can.  You may Funct the the function.

Something reliable.

Bamboo is an excellent material.  It compresses, re-expands to fill holes up, wont scratch and can be removed.    You can use it to hold copper into their slots for motor coils and thats where I got the idea from.

Try to preserve the springs too.

[Leslie]

BTW the motor should roll OK like any GM motor would.

But expect changes.

The gears will be engaged all the time and you may find a little resistance to spinning the motor up when pedalling with take offs, but it may help hold a steady momentum once you're going, , so your size wheel may need to be 26", as 20" and smaller will cause the motor to rev too hard when you want to pedal.  Disable regen because we don't know what the added torque will do to the gears.

Being able to reprogram the controllers regen amount may be worth a look.

[Sangesf]

BTW the motor should roll OK like any GM motor would.

But expect changes.

The gears will be engaged all the time and you may find a little resistance to spinning the motor up when pedalling with take offs, but it may help hold a steady momentum once you're going, , so your size wheel may need to be 26", as 20" and smaller will cause the motor to rev too hard when you want to pedal.  Disable regen because we don't know what the added torque will do to the gears.

Being able to reprogram the controllers regen amount may be worth a look.

don't have a programable controller, as I have not gotten a response from my waaranty replacement email
I will NEVER have to pedal ( well almostnever) because I have the othe motor on there too, so that's not an issue.  

Also, how do I disable regen on the (if I ever get it) replacement controller?

[Leslie]

Do you want to avoid warranty go ahead.

I avoid mine almost 3 days after I get my gear.  I have special needs.  I test it when I get it and if its DOA I send it back at my charge.  If it works,  some times it will sit on my shelf for 6 mths,  Like a spare.



I always buy a spare motor.  Its just makes these problems way less hassle.  I can test if I have a DOA hub or controller.

I would ask the warranty officer permission to investigate the failure under his instructions and provide photos.

I would offer to make my own repairs for hall failure.

I would only expect a return if the windings were broken on arrival.

In this case I would offer to pay for the return and ask to keep it instead for parts.  I would want my replacement hub sent and delivery paid by GM.

But that's meeeee  

LOL

However warranty is a hard ask over a couple of hall sensors.  But it not cost effective.

First thing.

Before you do anything, are you sure the controller is working?

We have tested the hall sensors, and we are absolutely sure there is a failure?

We get the two beeps indicating this.  Right?


And!
 
Its connected properly?

So we can gather if we lock the freewheel we will not need hall sensors to operate your motor.

This can be a liberating experience.  Providing the windings are sound you will never have motor failure again.

Count on this part to live a long time and don't overload or overvolt more than 40v.

Once this mod is done anything else is one part easier to get going,

You have a good battery and possibly a good controller.

Good luck if you proceed. and god speed.


Edit:

I believe your might be the first to do this on a GM mini motor and GM controller combination.  So you're the man.

How are you going to do it?
 

[Leslie]

Have you tested all the wires to and from the throttle, hall sensor phase and power wires?

[Leslie]

And if youre bothered to jam the wheel freewheel why not just replace the hall sensors anyway.

They are only a few dollars if that!

[Sangesf]

And if youre bothered to jam the wheel freewheel why not just replace the hall sensors anyway.

They are only a few dollars if that!

I'm talking about warranty replacement of the CONTROLLER.

I'm convinced the controller malfunctioned and created the fault that kill the hall sensors in the motor.

Why replace a hall sensor?  If it fails again, I don't want to open up the motor AGAIN.   If I can just lock the freewheel, that will be good enough. 

(not all of us have hundreds of extra dollars to purchase spare parts)

I don't think it should be a huge task to just ask for a replacement on an obviously faulty product.
(please read all my responses in this thread to see why I KNOW FOR A FACT that my controller is bad too.   

[Leslie]

The manufacturer of the hall sensor puts out a warning not to rely upon them for.

Why expect a person to give warranty on a part that even its maker states are not reliable.


Warning.

These products are NOT suitable for protection
against personal injury.
To AVOID personal injury or death, DO NOT
USE these products as emergency stop or safety
devices, or in any other application where human
safety is at risk.

http://www.honeywell-sensor.com.cn/prodinfo/magnetic_position/installation/p88781_2.pdf

Its the nature of the device.

They can work for years and on a hot day up a hill pop.  They can last for days.

I myself is waiting for the day they are either rid of in phase detection or a motor designed for easy access and replacement.

I was going to buy a mini motor but these hall sensor blues have steered me to the Pie.

[Leslie]

Look Im sorry you're in this position but if you ask around the crew many have been where you are and worse.

Here is one bike shop offering a pretty weak warranty by the look of the fine print.

+) only if installed by JVBike
Crystalyte components and parts not installed by JV Bike have 7 days exchange warranty for items that are result of the manufacturing defect; incorrectly connected, or obviously abused components are not warranted; returns are accepted in 15 days for items that are in brand new condition; there is 20% re-stocking fee

20% restocking fee???

This is synonymous to many retail outlets that deal in Crystalyte parts.

Yet at the Crystalyte web site it states this.

//  Warranties:

- Motors, controllers, throttles etc except batteries: One-year warranty by Crystalyte

- Batteries: One-year warranty by the manufacturers of the batteries

Sweeeet.  but if you read the first part of the page.  It reads this.

General purchase information :

?

//  Crystalyte cannot accept orders under USD5000.00

We are very sorry but we cannot accept orders under $5000.00 USD as it is not cost effective for us to process. Please feel free to contact any of our knowledgeable and courteous distributors for any information you may need on our quality Crystalyte product line.

Got $5000

Somewhere in all the confusion people end up repairing their own hall sensors.

To return the hub to china often ends up more costly than the motor itself.

See what happens is when the motor fails the seller and user get together and try to fix it to avoid much expense.  The Chinese Ebike industry would fold and die if everyone had to send whole hubs back for a replacement hall sensor.

Both customer and dealer make every effort to repair the problems before coughing up another shipping fee.  Its this respect the EV industry services upon.

I too wish I could go to Repco auto store and get all my Ebike motor parts or pay the mechanic at the service station to order the parts in and fix it for me, but this isnt a reality in the EV industry just yet.

We are the mechanics in this industry, unless you know someone that does ebike repairs.

This is the way of the Ebiker.  This whole forum and its people here are dedicated to help you through this.

[Leslie]

And if youre bothered to jam the wheel freewheel why not just replace the hall sensors anyway.

They are only a few dollars if that!

I'm talking about warranty replacement of the CONTROLLER.

I'm convinced the controller malfunctioned and created the fault that kill the hall sensors in the motor.

Why replace a hall sensor?  If it fails again, I don't want to open up the motor AGAIN.   If I can just lock the freewheel, that will be good enough. 

(not all of us have hundreds of extra dollars to purchase spare parts)

I don't think it should be a huge task to just ask for a replacement on an obviously faulty product.
(please read all my responses in this thread to see why I KNOW FOR A FACT that my controller is bad too.   

It would of been the hall sensor failure then the controller.


Here is how I would handle this.

Email tom and inquire about repairing the hub to avoid expensive returns.

Inquire about getting a replacement controller.

With the GM go ahead and instructions, Make sure you repair the hub before you use a new controller.

[Leslie]

I'm going to run with this thread.  Because its not going to go away.  But there is much important sharing to be done.

The thing is, sensorless is the holy grail of BLDC.

But its being developed as we speak.  Its sad but the BLDC motor needs more development, whiile some achieve a good balance in motor performance and efficiency other fall outside of the what sensorless technology provides.

We have been stuck with the bloody thing failing in some of the less ideal situation and we for years were stuck with noisy brushes or unreliable novle IC's.

Whether hall failure mode is 100% up to actually protecting the circuit 

Changing the things becomes arduous.  Every step, method, and material used putting them in must make a difference.

Look, on the grounds of locking the free wheel to run sensorless I can not guarantee anything good will come of it.  But I would give it a try to avoid any possible problems.

100v fets, senorless, proper connections, proper current, voltage assemblies eg coil composure to duty cycle to voltage, amps balancing has been working well for me.

I just need to get rid of about 27kgs and get a lithium battery.