GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => Magic Pie & Smart Pie Discussions => Topic started by: DirtyGinge on February 11, 2011, 10:26:00 PM
-
Hi All
after receiving my second pie over christmas, and having now completed 1500 miles of long distance commuting, I decided to rewire my electrics based on the experiences I had over that time ( snow ice, deer, rabbit).....for me there were some plain objectives to be achieved, and whilst discussing it with andrew, decided also to share it with you all so that you might gain some ideas for yourselves...
this will take several posts, due to several sick kids, unwell wife, and just too much honey wine to type conshishtentleeeeeeee :)....please be patient, it may seem incomplete, but ill get to it :), the wiring is complete, and testing is completed, all objectives ticked
The rewire had to achieve several basic objectives
1.....to be able to comply as much as possible with UK e-bike regulations
2.....to be able to remove the front pie temporarily without much hassle
3.....instant power reduction, for more grip in the snow wet etc. ( suggest rear wheel drive only )
4.....to support multiple battery configurations
5.....safety throttle cut offs
now you may ask, why buy dual pies, then want to reduce power.....well, there are instances where range is preferable over torque.......the dual pies are more efficient, ONLY if you accelerate exactly as with only 1 pie, and pedal up hills exactly as one pie, but the experience I have is that if you have steep hills, or are tired, drunk,sick, cold wet etc, then you will be heavy handed with the throttle, and therefore have the potential to use more power......now whilst 2 pies at 7 watts each are more efficient than a single pie drawing 14 amps, if onlyl 1 pie is active, the max I have drawn is 15 amps, with 2 pies active I have drawn 33 amps max... more power and less range........so the option is required to choose in my opinion
in order to achieve the above goals, I must achieve the following
1...watt limit
the uk regulations state maximum 200 watts on ONE motor with throttle, or EU regs 250 watts with PAS and no throttle...in this instance I have decided to go with the 1983 road traffic act, defining an electric bike as 200 watts continuous power output by throttle on ONE MOTOR ONLY
PLEASE NOTE....
the DVLA consider the use of a "boost" button, or bypass of the watt limit to be in defiance of the regulations, therefore any bypass must be well concealed ( for off road use only, I love queen and country )....the power can only be applied to one motor, the use of two working motors of any kind is considered toeb in violation of the regs
2....as I have pannier bags, the rear pie is concealed nicely both visually and sound wise, therefore if I need to ego into a "hot area" in daylight, I must be able to change the front motor for a standard non motor wheel at very short notice, therefore, all 5V feeds for the throttle relays etc must come from the back pie only
3....Need to isolate the front throttle pie signal, so I can run on rear only
4...be able to use my own dual lithium bombs, or the golden motor battery, whichever battery configuration is used, balance in the bike must be achieved,
5.....i need to be able to cut off all throttle signals, and also to be able at the same time to disable the pies "emergency " mode so that the cruise control button does not turn into a 15MPH monster activator ( both for legal and safety reasons)
-
stage one....
Needed
1 cycle analyst
at least 9 SBM 50 anderson powerpole connectors
2 x 10K resistors
2 x 2 K resistors
1 x 330 OHM resistors
1 x diode
push throttle with headlight button
another bottle of honey wine
1 x choc box ( from screwfix.com , item number 46538)
2 x 5v relays ( from www. maplins.com...N29 AW single pole dual throw)
lots of beer and honey wine
a very patient wife
soldering iron and rosin flux solder
propane blow torch for the anderson connectors, unless you are very patient with a soldering iron
-
The activation switches.....
There will be required, 2 x on/ off switches
1 will activate the SPDT relays, the other will connect / disconnect the front throttle feed
now, as much as I love you all, I cannot divulge the secret switches on my bike ( its just to plain kinky), so no pics available, however may I offer a suggestion
what if, each glove you wore had a magnet, and you had managed to embed reed switches under the rubber grips on the handlebar, then if you move your left hand, the limiter comes on restricting speed and cutting off the front pie, and if you remove your right hand, the front pie throttle is disconnected
( www.maplin.com cl38R)
now if only you could come across a cheap source of rare earth magnets
http://www.dansdata.com/magnets.htm
-
so, starting off then,
The cycle analyst os of the stand alone type, with a shunt added into the power line, in order to measure the current flowing from battery to controllers...
in all of my powerline I have used anderson connectors.... I have cut the standard connector off the charger and charge my GM battery through the discharge port via andersons, and everything hereafter has an anderson on it...this way I can chop and change as required
for instance
1 battery feeds both pies
2 batteries feeds both pies
2 batteries feed one pie each
3 batteries feed both pies ( hippie camping smokin weekend...bike trailer smoke and solar panel)
so whichever way you want it, the anderson will allow a sort of ( lego) stick it where you want it configuration
-
therefore, all 5V feeds for the throttle relays etc must come from the back pie only
I think you will need to use a separate 5V supply for energising your relays, as the 5V controller throttle and hall sensor output would not provide enough current to operate even a single miniature relay when I tried it.
Alan
-
Howdyyy
Hey yes the 5v reg is a SMD type, and puts out 100mA. So after the IC and halls sinking some of that, I expect about 30-40mA remaining...
If you are just switching throttle signals on and off, you could use a switch or to do it electronically, NPN transistors would work fine. With a base current of around 2mA you could do this.
Hey did you say you were charging your battery from the discharge port?? I'm not sure if that's good as the BMS has seperate connections for discharge, charging and battery connection.
I'd say the balanced charge connections, the BMS would have a max input of I assume 5A
This still really puzzles me, as the max input for these cells in 48v GM pack should be 18A charging max, so regen values exceed that.
Could it be, that charging your battery via the discharge terminal would charge the battery unbalanced, until it reached 54.6 when the charger switches itself off?
I'd be reconnecting that one ;)
-
to be honest I rarely use my GM battery now, so it hasnt been an issue, but I still have another GM charger with the original end...
With regards to the relays, they both run with the 5v supply, but they are miniature relays....
Here is the complexity issue
With one switch, I need to turn the limiter on, and at the same time turn the front throttle off.. this needs to be done very discreetly, should for some strange reason I forget, once coming from "off road" onto the main roads, to reconfigure for legality :), and should the policeman query this bike, only 1 motor must be functional, as well as the 250W 15 MPH limit
So the relays at the same time with the same imput, both connect the Cycle analyst current sink, and disconnect the throttle for the front pie, thats why I went with the above configuration...
I like the ideas of doing it electronically, so maybe thats an update for the future, but at the mo, all is working fine
As for regen, ive recorded regen of 23-25 amps for 1 pie...now considering that the controller is set up for around 15 amps in 1 direction, taking 25 the opposite way doesnt make sense to me...i don't use regen as it seems to risky, I have lots of hills around me
http://www.maplin.co.uk/5a-and-10a-miniature-relay-2512
-
Blummin 'ell mate! my head is spinning :o
I've just got around to reading this and it sounds like a whole load of fun to have such a project on the go.
I'm a little further down the evolutionary chain to you at present, i'm starting a bike build project. Just a cheapy steel frame/fork assembly from cheap ebay parts I can pick-up. The idea being to eventually try out a dual mini motor set-up.
i can now see from your plans that you are as paranoid as I am when passing the fuzz on UK roads.
By the way, Does a battery build thread come next? ;D
-
Hey Andrew
You could look around for a steel frame, or older frames you could find would be a bargain - not sure what its called in your country but have a look in a Walmart (Australia ours is called KMart and some others...) and other big variety stores that have bikes
Nearly all of them have specials on the steel frame bikes because they don't sell as well. So you can pick up a full suspension steel frame for like $200 that probably has front and rear disc brake mounts.
My bike is actually a kids 24" lol I just put all my bits I wanted on it to make it bigger.
-
Hi Andrew...
yes all the battery pics are done, its just that I keep getting drunk....last night I had my hands over my head typing, as the only thing holding me up was my teeth biting into the computer table.....
I gotta finish this thread though, by showing how everything was achieved with very little trouble.......like I said at the beginning, I hope it helps others in the forum.....and after several thousand miles and several different ways, this one works really cool :)
regards
-
Hey andrew, check ebay for trek frames.... I bought 2 and built a beautiful trek 4100 aluminium for my actual cycling...total weight 5 kgs, total cost 40 squids.....
Monkey, I had a brief look with a hangover on the wiki of the NPN transistor....whats the quick scoop on how they operate, like a fet, apply current to energise the 3rd pin ?...cheers :)
-
Quick breakdown?
NPN = negative switching (switch the GND throttle wire to each of your pies)
Or you could use PNP = positive switching, although they are less common (electrons flow throw negative terminal ya know)
Anyway, it works like this: a transistor has a base, collector and an emitter.
You apply a small current to the base, and it basically turns the switch 'on/off'
A transistor is basically a component made up of 1 or more digital switches.
They cost about $0.02c instead of $ for your relays and are about a 5th the size of your little fingernail...
A billion circuits and references on google. Don't ever go to wiki for electronics info you want to learn its too full of general crap lol
Maybe check this out:
http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/transistor/tran_4.html (http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/transistor/tran_4.html)
Or just do a search on "transistor switch circuit" or, NPN circuit etc.
Here's something sneaky mate.... For your speed control you could use a 555 timer setup as monostable. Then with a momentary push button, when the long arm of the law grabs you, you could push the button and it would enable your speed reduction/throttle switch circuit for a set amount of time. So even if they go around pushing all the buttons, you know in your head its gunna take 26mins or whatever you set the resistor values to for your timer.
Sounds like you're into electronics, and I bet you would grasp transistors from the above link in a jiffy. If you want to look into that 555 timer mention I said above, try searching for "555 one shot" and "555 monostable" and this should present sites with circuits that allow you to switch something for a set period of time, or on/off via a momentary button.
Cheers mate
-
Hi Monkey
Yes indeed I like to tinker a lot, but its like all things, new concepts would be grasped a lot quicker if someone just broke it down to simple english :), so many times ive come across this in it with engineers in my team...all it takes is to break down a problem to the level of language of the person you are talking to, but the "seasoned" engineers love to talk tech........leaving a blank expression on the target audience
with the throttles, timer is also a good one......I thought of reed switches in the handlebar grips, with magnet in the cycling gloves, no hand on bar, no throttle pass through....
So is the idea of switching the negative instead of positive due to current flow ? NPN has a reduced load over a PNP ?
regards
-
So ...moving forwars....the power line
There are 2 options with the power line....listed as left and right
Now as im not a budding millionaire like gary, I could not afford 2 cycle analyst, so the right config only allows for 1, readings to be doubled
The trouble with the left config, is that the 2 or 3 batteries used must be very closely matched, otherwise instead of feeding the wheels, they will be spending their time balancing out the weak one /each other
Also, all batteries must be charged to the same level before connection, or they will be picking bits of you up of the pavement . sidewalk
This is no joke !!!!! you do not want to connect a full battery to an empty one, a 48 volt discharge at 50-60 amps from one battery to another could be lethal if you have no fuse in line !!!!!!
p.s. diode blocking is not an option, as it will block regen current, and blow your controllers ....
-
Now as im not a budding millionaire like gary.
Hahaha, lol, If only you knew the truth, very funny! I just have the advantage (or is it a dissadvantage?) of inventory. I can just go grab anything desired of the shelf and no one stops me at the door. Seems like everything is free!
Gary
-
Hey gingey
Maybe this can help, its a 48v LED light circuit off a ebike kit.
I just followed the traces on the PCB and made my own 9xUV one for a little project box im making.
I tested it on 55v for half hour and the resistor was still just hot enough to touch. I didn't test the current but I assume no more than 200mA with the resistor used and the LED's.
Using high brightness LED's this would be a good little circuit for a brake light.
Reason I'm pointing this to you is you can tap off the series of LED's to get an output for your relays (eg. tapping from 4th LED is around 12.6v) - and maybe use a resistor there too (eg. 560-Ohm resistor from 4th LED to 12v relay coil)
When you activate the relay, the LED series you tap from dim with the current being transferred to your load.
So I put a 330-Ohm resistor to a 12v fan and spun it from the 4th LED point and the first 4 LED's went about half brightness and my fan spun about 2000RPM which is plenty to cool something. Anyways could be handy for ya ;) and cheeeeap hehe
I made a bodge paint schematic for you lol
*parts required:
2Kohm 1Watt resistor
IN4104 diode (I guess that's optional but I'd keep it..)
9 x high intensity LED's
Less than 60v supply
-
hi monkey
looks sweet,
must admit, I had thought of making a panel for the back activated with a brake type switch, that spelt out F%$ OFF :)
seriously though, schematics like this are really handy for the new guys, they can get great ideas for modding, learn more etc......many thanks for contributing
must actually get the diagram for the controller wiring done....
-
Hey mate
I'll post my throttle / speed limiter circuit I'm using up tomorrow.
It basically connects like this:
Wheels always have resistor connected to throttle signal wire from 5v presenting 0.8v - you can then add full signal (via a switch) or use a pot to vary the throttle signal to maintain the speed you want.
Anyway I'll make one and post it up for ya if you are still working on it. I'm in the final stages of re-building mine back up. I'll run some numbers first on the current, then I'll consider modding the shunt on the rear wheel to see what action I can get.
I'm now running 2 x 48v12Ah, connected to each wheel, and have the option to parallel the 2 batteries if I choose to add the chain drive motor.
Anyway, the whole reason for this post, is to put you onto this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxLKfAZrhbM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxLKfAZrhbM)
It's a tutorial of voltage dividers you should pickup pretty easy. I found this as I was designing a LCD character screen built into the throttle casing to show both battery voltages :D
Anyway let us know how you're going, any more pics???
:D
-
Hi Monkey :)
All pics are done, its just getting a spare hour to sit down and type it all out, so all reading can understand.....hopefully this weekend :)
regards
-
I've now seen Ginges' bike and must say that the way he has designed and implemented this limiter and motor control is really innovative. Big respect from me for the man's dedication. I can't wait for the Battery build thread ;)
-
lol, andrew posted the above after chugging down litres of the ginge's honey wine....take with a pinch of salt hehehe :)
Was nice to meet you Andrew, and really nice that you arent an axe murderer also ;D
Who else is in the UK, we will have to arrange a summer barbeque, drink, food ,more drink then pie drag racing, what can possilbly go wrong heheheh
-
Hey comon' no sidesteppin' away from the topic
Oi so what's this innovative piece of work that's been designed and implemented
I'm still like a week away from getting the monkeymobile back on the road :D
-
Hi Monkey...
ok you got me......
As much as I enjoyed tea ( sh$%"% forgot the biscuits, but fed him sandwiches...kinda makes the grade)
with Andrew, with a massive lecture on the himalayan treck donkey, he is being very very kind with his praise...
There is nothin innovative, but just very very sneaky ways to disguise the pie for what it is, with the appearance of legality for " instant cop pullover" effect......
( hey andrew, don't stop the praise though.........its cool hehehehe, my muddy donkey feels very unloved after this winter...hows the hangover...hey you know mead has in effect a massively healthy balance of vitamins )
-
So moving on, 2 hangovers later
excuse if there are any glaring ommisions / errors in this pic, but it was done whilst drunk
So, throttle control........I need to achieve the following...
1....be able to turn off front wheel ( too wet, icy, need to lose fat, extend range due to too hilly etc)
2....need to enable cycle analyst limiting /disable front pie at the same time ( euro regs, 1 working motor only)
3....easy access wiring
4...be able to change front pie out for normal wheel ( in case too many cops in broad daylight, rear hidden by pannier, such as a police catch a bastard electric biker convention, dressed as mujahideen tribesman, I mean the motor is offensive no ? )
5...disable the "no throttle" emergency mode of cruise control = 50% throttle....just in case they press the button out of curiosity, and I have to surgically remove a gel saddle from my ass
6....disable the throttle ( safety for moving bike through doors( there is history there), and curious kids, in case I need to remove aforementioned saddle from their ass)
All of the above came from the 2000 miles I have just achieved, as experience in what does and doesnt work for me...such as the -12C ice ride this december in the uk, front torque IS NOT a good thing here, (lots of deck hitting)
Now as mentioned before, I appear to be pushing the 5V surface mounted limiter of the rear pie, and may move my relays to NPN transistors when I get time ( thanks guys) but mini mini relays seem to be just the treat at the mo ........"SPDT"
-
Hey anyone jump in and correct me here, but the throttle LED battery guage has both 5v+ and Wheel battery voltage going in there.
I'm testing my own battery guage, and it looks similar to the layout on the standard throttle lights where the battery voltage is used with voltage dividers (resistors) in order to supply a base current for the transistors (that turn the LED's on and off)
The transistors then switch on and off the throttle lights. So correct me if I'm wrong but the throttle LED's actually run from the 5V+ supply NOT battery voltage. And uses the battery voltage as a reference only for the transistor switching. That would be the most efficient anyways.
Having said this, you should already be running only 1 x 5v signal anyway, so now you can utilise your dual drive and source current from the second wheel instead.
So wheel 1 = connected to throttle/ normal 5v+ signal
Wheel 2 = upto around 90mA of current for your circuit switching.
Hope that is a bit of help :)
-
Part of the problem is that in order to be able to remove the front pie at short notice as per the requirements in the project, I cant use the front pie voltage feed at all, as removal of the wheel will render whatever will be based on its voltage will die
Currently all feeds come off the back wheel, but if I need more current, ill have to use a linear regulator to source it from the battery......
-
a very patient wife
You have one of those? That must be awesome!
I'm guessing you don't do you builds in the living room?
Gary
-
No, I'm consigned to the cramped office, soldering whilst banging my elbow off doors
Just to clear up the above diagram
The 5V feed comes from the 5v hall sensor feed
then routed through the switch on the thumb throttle....
regards all
-
Hi Ginge
Hey what is the relay coil voltage? Someone jump in here if I'm wrong, but if you are trying to sink a relay current from the hall sensor feed - it is powered by the same voltage regulator anyway.
Not sure if you had a chance to test this? Because I doubt there is enough current unless you choose not to run the throttle battery led's.
I'm having mega weird issues with my setup, today I fired up my front wheel without the 8-pin connector and no beeps!! Plugged in a throttle and shes all good to go, but disconnecting the 8-pin connector still no beeps...
I wanted to do some test circuits but may not need to now lol dunno if the no beeps is good or bad...
Could you post that diagram with how you will connect the coils of the relays? Cheers
-
So correct me if I'm wrong but the throttle LED's actually run from the 5V+ supply NOT battery voltage. And uses the battery voltage as a reference only for the transistor switching. That would be the most efficient anyways.
Monkey, the battery indicator unit appears to be separate from the 5V supply. I just disconnected the three pin plug from the throttle (removing the 5V supply) and the battery indicator continues to work as normal.
I've noticed that the battery indicator in my 36V throttle unit gets nice and warm when I occasionally run on 51.8V (58.8V fully charged). :o
Alan
-
Hi Monkey
yes im running 2 x miniature 5v relays from the hall sensor feed, but no I don't run the power lights built into the throttle, never bothered wiring it up as I have the cycle analyst....
Yes, this setup as described is fully working, has been for 500 Miles, no problems whatsoever.....but they are mini mini relays ....ill; try and get a linkk for you
Regards
-
Shweeet well as long its working who cares lol
Alan actually led me to confirm that no, there is no 5v going to the throttle lights - on closer inspection red wire is connected to the hall sensor gnd.
Post the link up in case someone else is looking for it, otherwise it's cool I'll stick to the 'sisters
(not tranny's lol)
;)
-
I believe this is the one
Single pole, dual throw....( meaning you have a choice in whether application of the current turns the switch on or off, on for cycle analyst, and off for 2nd wheel throttle)
http://www.maplin.co.uk/2a-sub-miniature-relays-37525
-
Ginge, as both of your relays are operated from a single switch, why did you decide to use two SPDT relays instead of just one DPDT relay?
If anyone was considering a similar setup, but didn't want to go to the trouble of a hidden reed switches and magnets, they could easily mount a miniature DPDT toggle switch somewhere easily accessible (but out of sight) instead.
(http://www.talonix.com/images/rly/RLY0056.jpg) (http://www.domustools.co.uk/Globiz/globiz%20tools%20pictures/09030-0.jpg)
Miniature DPDT Relay Miniature DPDT Toggle Switch
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2869.0;attach=4017;image)
Regarding the above pair of 10K and 2K resistors in series on the throttle 5V feed, is the 1V supply a result of the voltage drop through both resistors as you've shown (the same as it would through a single 12K resistor), or does it come from between the two resistors (with the 2K going to ground) like the simple voltage divider circuit below?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Resistive_divider.png)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/4/1/5/415e91d513b35ad4092e9c5eb59980f0.png)
Vout = 2 / (2+10) x 5V = 0.83V
Alan
-
2 Resistors in series, ( read it somewhere in the forums)
Yup, a DPDT could have done the same, but they werent in stock due to snow for 1 month :).......needed to get it running as soon as possible, and as it worked, didnt bother to change....
As always though, the reason for posting in the forum, is that people far more electronically educated than myself, can finetune, and the end result is great for people who are looking for ideas......
regards