Author Topic: Aww, fooey  (Read 9401 times)

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Aww, fooey
« on: March 23, 2012, 09:38:55 PM »
Hi Folks,

Last night I cabled up my MP3 with the controls on  a bench, and with my three-wheeler up in the air.   I powered it up, and the wheel spun under obvious control of the thumb throttle. I powered it off, and powered it back up, with the same results.  Battery voltage was 55VDC, open circuit.   And to celebrate I quit for the night and had an adult beverage.

This afternoon I mounted the controls,  checked the tire pressure, charged the battery, generally cleaned it up, and put it on the ground to give it a  first test drive.  And it wouldn't budge...

I lifted the rear wheel off the ground and gave the wheel a spin.  Without power it spun easily, and with power on, the MP3 was notchy when I rotated it, showing it had power.  There were three LEDs lighted on the throttle.  The battery output voltage was 55VDC, in circuit.    So, I figure I did something to the throttle when I mounted it.  There were no hammers involved with mounting any of the controls, but I was the only one there....

But are all three lights on the throttle  supposed to be on?  I really expected to see only the full light.  And to be honest, I can tell you there was some light on  the throttle last night, but really didn't pay any attention.  (I've already admitted I'm a damn fool in a previous post)

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

TTFN,
Dennis
 


Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Aww, fooey
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2012, 12:33:43 AM »
Here are the voltages I measured at the throttle connector.  Anybody know if these are OK?   I was kind of surprised to not find a 5 to 15 volt reference voltage for the Hall Effect throttle sensor.

If Alan is out there,  to what pins did you connect the pot you mentioned?

TTFN,
Dennis

Offline Bikemad

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Re: MPIII Wiring Details
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2012, 02:38:23 AM »
Dennis, you seem to have either a problem with your 5V supply for the throttle sensor, or a poor connection with your test probe. If your harness has the three pin pedelec connector, you can easily check the 5V supply by measuring between the connectors with the red and black wires.

I would suggest you unplug the 8 pin connector from the motor harness and see if the 5V supply is present on the +5V socket.
I have attached two wiring diagrams which I have drawn of the two different wiring harnesses that I received. Hopefully this will help you to figure out the correct throttle connections.

 

Quote
Without power it spun easily, and with power on, the MP III was notchy

This does not sound right, as the motor should turn just as easily whether the power is turned on or off.

If you have one of the brake levers jammed slightly in the operated position, this will activate the regenerative braking and cause the wheel to be difficult to turn when power is on, but easy to turn when the power is switched off. ;)
I experienced this problem when I first bench tested my original Pie. It worked absolutely fine until I used the brake lever and then it would not run again. At that time, the brake lever was not attached to anything and therefore did not have a cable attached. I discovered that the "U" shaped metal bracket which the cable fits into had simply got stuck inside the lever housing because there was no cable to keep it lined up correctly. This caused the brake switch to stay on continually, which correctly prevented the motor from running.

Quote
to what pins did you connect the pot you mentioned?

That was on an earlier Pie which had the separate three pin throttle connector as shown in the photo. The two outer connections went to the +5v and Ground connections, and the centre connector went to the throttle signal wire.

Carefully check your levers and throttle/motor harness connection and let's hope you find something obvious causing your problem.



Alan
 
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 07:12:54 PM by Bikemad »

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Aww, fooey
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2012, 02:57:08 AM »
Hi Alan,

Thanks for the heads up about the brakes.  That would fit the symptoms.  I'll give it a try. However, the voltages I measured were with all the controls disconnected.

I'll see if the 8 pin connector voltages match your photo. 

By the way, do you know  if the reverse switch is referenced to the ground or +5v to activate?
 

TTFN,
Dennis

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Aww, fooey
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2012, 03:31:39 AM »
I have no +5vdc on any of the pins or wires noted. 

Aww , Fooey, it's broke


TTFN,
Dennis

Offline Bikemad

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Re: MPIII Reverse
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2012, 03:49:50 AM »

The reverse lead has to be switched to ground to activate reverse.

Check out this video to see it in operation.

I don't know whether connecting the reverse wire to the +5V wire would cause the 5V regulator to blow, but I'm not prepared to find out by testing mine. ;)

Alan
 

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Aww, fooey
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2012, 04:25:24 AM »
Hi Alan,

Yeah, I wouldn't do it either.  Thanks for the link,  from the GM site I thought the yellow wire was the reverse signal lead.!   Regarding the lack of +5VDC I have contacted GM China about my problem.

TTFN,
Dennis

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Aww, fooey
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2012, 05:00:33 AM »


Hi Alan,

I think I have been thinking about the function of the brake levers incorrectly.  It is logical for the brake lever to disable the controller, and thus the +5VDC, so that the EMF generated by the pie would be routed to the battery, and not stress the controller.     In my infinite wisdom, I assumed  using the brake would close a contact pair.  But if the correct sense of the signal is that the operation of the lever opens a contact pair, then by disconnecting brake levers I would be simulating the use of the brake, thus forcing the controller into regen mode, and removing the +5VDC from the entire system.

I did mention I was a damn fool, didn't I?

TTFN,

Dennis

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Brake Switches
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2012, 03:50:04 PM »

Dennis, the brake switches do actually close the circuit when either of the brakes are used, but unfortunately this does not cut off the 5V supply, so it would not cause your missing 5V feed.

Either the 5V supply is being somehow shorted to ground, or the regulator chip on the controller that provides the 5V output has failed.
With the battery disconnected, check the resistance between the +5V and Ground wire to see if there is a dead short.
To give you some idea of what you should expect, I measured a resistance of around 2,900 Ohms between the +5v and ground connections on my controller's 8 pin socket.

The 5V supply for the throttle also feeds the three hall sensors on the motor, so the motor cannot run without it.
If your resistance reading is similar to mine (indicating that the 5V circuit is not shorted out) I would try applying an external voltage (i.e. three AA batteries in series) across the red and black wires on the pedelec connector to see if the motor would then run. If this cures the problem, it should theoretically be possible to use a cheap external DC to DC converter to replace the failed internal regulator and supply the required 5V feed.

But are all three lights on the throttle  supposed to be on?  I really expected to see only the full light.

When the battery is fully charged, all three LEDs should be on. As the battery voltage starts to fall, the LEDs will start to turn off in turn.
Three LEDs = Full
Two LEDs = Half Used
One LED = Almost Empty

Unfortunately these gauges do not seem to be too accurate, and you may find that the battery shuts off much sooner than you might expect.
It's a bit like the battery level indicator on my phone, it seems to stay on full for ages and then it suddenly decides to go from reading full to being flat enough to shut everything off in a very short time. >:(

Alan
 

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Aww, fooey
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2012, 05:02:22 PM »
Hi Alan,

I think I'll wait for GM to respond before I go any farther with this.    I will ohm out the +5V line, tho.  Thanks for the readings. 

My experience is that about 80% of all electronic problems that I've solved  were caused by interconnection failure of some sort, with connectors and solder joints heading that set. 

Thanks,
Dennis

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Aww, fooey
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2012, 05:45:16 PM »
Hi Alan,

The +5VDC line measures wide open to ground at both the 8 pin connector and the pedelec/reverse cable.  Which makes me feel even more confident there is a bad connection in there....It'll have to wait for China GM to respond. 

TTNF,
Dennis

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Aww, fooey
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2012, 05:22:02 AM »
GM got back to me, and i'm going to open up my MP3, and see if I can find a broken wire.  If not, they will send me a replacement controller.  I'll take some photos to share with you good people.  Any special requests while I have it open?

TTFN,
Dennis


Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Aww, fooey
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2012, 09:15:54 PM »
Well, the cause of the damage was pretty easy to discern.  There was wire damage in two areas.  The main cable was cut by the groove in the axle.  The edges of the groove are like a knife edge, and it is my intention to take a die grinder to those edges and round them off.  I strongly encourage anyone with an MP III to take a look at that area.  I'm confident most axles are similar. 

The second damaged wire is the white signal wire that was damaged by the black DC power wire pushing the white wire against the housing.  The insulation has been deformed so the conductor was making contact with the housing. 

TTFN,
Dennis
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 02:49:43 PM by GM Moderator »

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Aww, fooey
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2012, 09:16:47 PM »
ARGH!!!!

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Aww, fooey
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2012, 01:03:02 AM »
Well, I'm told I am being shipped a new controller with USB...

TTFN,
Dennis