Author Topic: Magic Pie VS "Older" model  (Read 17214 times)

Offline diverdon

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Magic Pie VS "Older" model
« on: November 19, 2009, 04:44:46 AM »

   Hello, Please excuse me for not knowing all of the special terms and names .

     I am real excited about getting a Magic Pie Kit . Got startrd in this thru a post in my RC Plane Forum where someone used a big Turnigy outrunner brushless to propell a bike .

      I have been looking into this ever since and the Magic Pie has really caught my eye . With its bigger size making the spokes shorter and stronger . Also the motor is supposto be stronger it's bigger around "diameter" and has more magnets .and 1 big decider is that this motor is narrower . So it is much more likely to fit in my rear frame ??? The frame width at the axel is 5&3/4 inches so I'm thinking either??Magic Pie or the 901will fit?? Anyone know this,Please???

     Now the question .. From the time I've spent looking at this stuff on the internet I am starting to wonder which would be the best for me .

      Not that Money is a big factor I'm not rich but if your gonna do this do it right the first time .. I will save up what I need .. I know the Magic Pie is more $$cabbage but is it really faster that the other motor like in the pro kit 901 . Going to use 48 volts of ping power on either one . Im seeing that the Magic Pie might have more torque but not the same top end speed as the 901 style . ...... But will the 901 rear motor fit for sure with 5&3/4 inches width between axel mount holes ???

       The 901 costs less and seems to be more available and longer tested . But I am not against getting the NEW Best one .. Magic Pie .. If it's best for ME???

     And the last thing both of the kits have the same options ?? Right :-) Cruise control, regen brakes ,petal assist available if I choose it ??..

     That is all .... ENOUGH ..I Know .. I had decided .. Get the Magic Pie then I started thinking ang listening to the posts .. The Magic Pie is slower??True?? But will the 901 motor fit in the frame 5&3/4 inches ... Trek 7500 multitrack with 700c wheels .. Can't wait to ride it just cannot decide ... Help Please ... Thanks for looking at this horrible long post , Don J.   

Offline Leslie

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Re: Magic Pie VS "Older" model
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2009, 05:43:27 AM »
Good things sometimes come in smaller packages.  Youre right about the spokes being stronger because they are smaller but the same applies to the motor sizes.

The main advantage I see with the Pie wide diameter is torque given to a gearless design and the speed is up to electronics which is very capable of delivering good rpm over a direct drive for this application.  Low RPM of the direct drive motor gives little friction and heat is kept down due to this lower RPM.

Where RC and geared drives tend to suffer is they make more RPM and use gears for good torque.  This adds more heat to the motor and inefficiencies to the conversion.

It is a stronger motor by means of torque.  The motor weighs more and this takes a little from the design but gives back to heat disipation.

Also the direct drive has less issues with breaking geared teeth.  Many Hub motors use nylon gears and they wear out.  RC motors break chains and bands.

The Pie offers the best of many worlds and only looses in a few worlds.

Good torque and speed.  Good heat disipation, strong spokes and less wind resistance because of shorter spokes.  Low mechanical failure due to less moving parts.

The positives outweigh the negatives as you can see.

The only thing I would do is move the internal controller to the outside because my wife overloads the shopping trailer and this is simply my need and not the needs of the many.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2009, 05:45:39 AM by 317537 »

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Offline diverdon

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Re: Magic Pie VS "Older" model
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2009, 10:13:04 AM »


      Hello There, And THANKS!! For answering my long post .. You were quick too ... I did not know the other type or motors were gear driven ? The 901 "Pro" kit is the one I used as an example because it is on the same web page as the apple pie .

       How about I call this motor the "AP" for short ? I have seen several different posts as to toe speed of this motor . And it makes perfect sense to me that the higher the volts the higher the speed .. Ha! Ha! .. from my olllld slot car days with the "Special" armatures we put in .Showin my age.

     But really is there somewhere that the relative speeds are posted for thiis motor ? I don't want to go 50 mph but neither do I want to go 15 mph either.. The Gear motor still has me sorta confused here too . Gears most likely would reduce the speed and increace the torque . But the way I read your post the gears are only in the smaller older motors ???

      The MP Motor has good torque built in with the motor size but is the speed limited in some way? thats my question . Do the electronics have it set to 20 mph tops ? I am unsure about why you say you need to have your controller outside for your wifes shopping habits???

    Really I am sorry for the questions and repost of them . I am only trying to buy the one that fits my purpose the best. To be able to "Cruise" at 20mph plus without putting a strain on the conponents .

    Thanks Again, Sooo Much for reading my post ..er?.. "Book" and for all of the help youve been . I just hope this clears up things for others and that I'm not the only one whos confused about this . Thanks , Don J.   

Offline Leslie

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Re: Magic Pie VS "Older" model
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2009, 07:52:24 AM »
Yes I think the mini motors because of the smaller diameter have gears.

The wife she lugs full trailers with a basket and baby seat packed full, she almost burnt the HBS36R Rear Hub Motor out once at 48v out, and I would be afraid to put the controller inside a hub with her driving.  :o


Not all low volt motors are slow either it depends on the way the coils are designed to create magnetic fiels.  Both current and voltage create magnetic fields. Voltage add throw distance and current adds torque strength. Increase torque strength and you can either use gearing to milk the speed and or a wider diameter rim.  Again this concept creates heat too.


The HBS models and some of the others are from my knowledge all gearless.

What I mean by the electronics being capable of giving good speed is that even if you were to give the MP 72v with a 72v capable controller the BLDC controller design at this voltage is capable of delivering hall signals and synchronization with the hub with no latencies or excess heat due to higher RPM. By electric motor standards the Golden motor hub is a slug just asking for some energy and power and has much more potential inside it than we mortals experience.  

The wider diameter MP coil speed across past the magnet is faster than the smaller hubs at the same RPM making the timing more difficult for the controller to keep up and add more poles into the simulation and you can guess what I mean. But when I say more difficult there is much more of this to be had,  The electronics can most definitely do this so much faster than is required..

If the electronics are badly designed the motor may fail to deliver the signals correctly and the motor will perform sadly.

Yes more voltage is needed to make the MP go faster but my point being is that the wider diameter gives much more torque due to the leverage applied further from the centre of the hub and this has no effect to the top speed because this is dependant on the controllers ability to deliver hall signals fast enough.  The angle of magnetic field from the coil to the permanent magnet is not effected so the whip throw effect remains almost constant.

High speed and  high torque in a single package.  Sure with some planetary gearing the MP would perform better, but those performance increases begin to suffer as the motor diameter increases.  Similarly the wider diameter motor the less you need gears to supplement the torqe speed ratio.

If one could advance the hall sensors physically in the motor by 2, 3, or 5 mm depending on the size of the motor, add a delay to the signal, and variate it, this could be like an advance system to give greater speed increases when the load torque is low and RPM is high.  The faster the coil moves across the magnet there is latency over the air gap between permanent magnet and coil.  The concept is to close this latency up at high RMP to regain the benefits of the whip effect when the vehicle momentum is high.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 08:06:14 AM by 317537 »

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Offline Leslie

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Re: Magic Pie VS "Older" model
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2009, 08:29:10 AM »
I would like to see a timing advance system included with BLDC motors and controllers.

The best example of this system at work is a mortal bike rider. When he pedals up a hill He delays the power from his legs to get a wider angle on the cranks giving the rider more power, when he goes down a hill he can push earlier on the pedals as the power stroke is shorter from the origin of vertical pivot for the same crank distance movement.

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Offline diverdon

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Re: Magic Pie VS "Older" model
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2009, 01:36:49 AM »


      uhhh ? What ?  ;D Sorry I don't understand the advanced technical talk in those last 2 answers ???Really thou Thanks for answering them ..

           So I'm thinking the real question is about the Magic Pie .. and will it go over 20 mph with the 48 volt battery? Or does the internal controller limit this?I understand the torque is better with the bigger diameter motor .. more magnets and poles .. Have also figured that either motor will fit in my frame . Trek 7500 Multitrack with 700c wheels .

        Just up in the air about which motor to get .. The 901 or the Magic Pie ? Thinking the Magic Pie mainly because it is the newer one. Only concern is top speed being limited but I'm thinking that their would be lots of comments if that was the case ..

     Well Thanks again for reading my long post . The only real question from all of this is whats your experience with the speed from this motor?
               
               Good Day to Everyone , Don J.

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Magic Pie VS "Older" model
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2009, 03:16:23 AM »
So I'm thinking the real question is about the Magic Pie .. and will it go over 20 mph with the 48 volt battery?

On 36V Sealed Lead Acid batteries:

3 x 7Ah SLA batteries in series showing just over 38V with no load. Couple of runs up and down the road with GPS strapped on-board...the road has a very slight incline.
Max top speed up the road 16mph
Max top speed in other direction 18mph (GPS shows max speed of 18.4mph)
I'm using an old lumpy MTB tyre that must have a lot of drag on the road, plus I think my rear brake may also be rubbing slightly so take these figures with a pinch of salt!
Bike + Rider approx 120 kg

On GM's 48V Lithium batteries:

Voltage: 48v (54.6v fully charged)
Top speed: 50 km/h
Bike + Rider approx 80 kg

I'm still not sure why there's such a large difference between Jim's 16-18mph@36V and Kevin's 31mph@48V.
But obviously the Magic Pie can exceed 20mph.

Alan
 

Offline diverdon

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Re: Magic Pie VS "Older" model
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2009, 03:56:33 AM »


     OK , Thanks So much, that does it . I will get the Magic Pie that's what I have been thinking about all along but somewhere I got the Idea that the internal controler caused the motor to be sorta "governed" .. Must have been something I read somewhere ..

      Welll thanks again . I will stop with the dumb questions now .  :DJust gonna place my order and pratice my patience . I wish there waas a closer place than China to order . I'm guessing after this has been out longer there will be ..

                      Take Care everyone , Don J.

Offline diverdon

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Re: Magic Pie VS "Older" model
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2009, 04:15:59 AM »


              Opps  :o..I screwed up .. The Canada Dealer has them on their site .. So you CAN buy them in this side of the world .. Great  ;D.. Don J.

Offline cadstarsucks

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Re: Magic Pie VS "Older" model
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2010, 06:13:50 PM »
So I'm thinking the real question is about the Magic Pie .. and will it go over 20 mph with the 48 volt battery?

On 36V Sealed Lead Acid batteries:

3 x 7Ah SLA batteries in series showing just over 38V with no load. Couple of runs up and down the road with GPS strapped on-board...the road has a very slight incline.
Max top speed up the road 16mph
Max top speed in other direction 18mph (GPS shows max speed of 18.4mph)
I'm using an old lumpy MTB tyre that must have a lot of drag on the road, plus I think my rear brake may also be rubbing slightly so take these figures with a pinch of salt!
Bike + Rider approx 120 kg

On GM's 48V Lithium batteries:

Voltage: 48v (54.6v fully charged)
Top speed: 50 km/h
Bike + Rider approx 80 kg

I'm still not sure why there's such a large difference between Jim's 16-18mph@36V and Kevin's 31mph@48V.
But obviously the Magic Pie can exceed 20mph.

Alan
 
the speed difference is easy:  80% faster
30% more voltage
50% more mass
and lithium batteries

as an interesting aside, while it was not mentioned the capacity of the lithium pack, it is well known that at high drain conditions SLAs are only good for about half their rating, so a 4AHr lithium pack will outperform a 7AHr SLA at high speeds as well as climb hills faster due to it's lower internal resistance.

dan

Offline Bikemad

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Sealed Lead Acid and Lithium Polymer comparison - Tested on Magic Pie
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2010, 12:43:37 AM »
I've just carried out some basic tests on my Magic Pie to compare the maximum power from 14Ah SLA batteries and Turnigy 5Ah 20C LiPo packs.
I raised the wheel off the ground and then held the throttle fully open whilst gradually applying the brake until the wheel almost completely stopped.
I then noted the readings on my watt meter, which you can see here:

Battery      No load voltage    Max Amps    Min Volts    Max Wattage
24V SLA       25.76        20.14     23.09        465
25.9V LiPo    27.30        20.29     25.80        525
36V SLA       38.70        20.21     34.79        703
48V SLA       51.50        20.33     44.99        915

48.1V LiPo    50.30        19.85     47.75        949
55.5V LiPo    58.70        20.08     55.51       1115
59.2V LiPo    61.63
voltage too high to test (the Pie refused to work!)


The 48Volt comparison clearly shows how the LiPo pack is far superior at maintaining a higher voltage under load.
The SLA Batteries has a voltage drop of 6.51V under the 20Amp load, whereas the LiPo only drops 2.55V under a similar load (within 2.5%).

It's unfortunate that LiPo packs are renowned for their ability to occasionally explode and burst into flames as well.
I've already had one cell die on me after trying some similar tests earlier today, but fortunately it didn't catch fire or explode!
Two of the three Cells are still reading 4.1V, but the other ballooned cell is only reading 0.04V! :(

I'm not very happy about this failure as the pack is only two months old, and this was the first time I had used it!
It's not as if I've overloaded it with the Magic Pies 20Amp limit, as it should be good for 100Amps continuous and 150 Amps bursts!
Now I'm short of a 3Cell pack for the two 10Ah 14cell packs (7S2P) I was planning to make up for my 24/48V (25.9/51.8V) switching arrangement. So it looks like I might have to try and find a replacement locally, as I expect the return postage to Hobby King will probably cost almost as much, and it will take a whole lot longer waiting for a warranty replacement as well. >:(

I suppose life would be very boring and predictable if everything went according to plan. ::)

Alan
 
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 01:03:47 AM by Bikemad »

Offline Mabman

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Re: Magic Pie VS "Older" model
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2010, 05:09:56 PM »
Thanks alot 317537 and Alan for all the time that you take on here to provide information that makes me feel like the dawn of the e bike engine is just beginning. Keep it up!

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Hobby King's Lithium Polymer Battery Warranty
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2010, 01:05:59 AM »
I've already had one cell die on me after trying some similar tests earlier today, but fortunately it didn't catch fire or explode!
Two of the three Cells are still reading 4.1V, but the other ballooned cell is only reading 0.04V! :(

I'm not very happy about this failure as the pack is only two months old, and this was the first time I had used it!
So it looks like I might have to try and find a replacement locally, as I expect the return postage to Hobby King will probably cost almost as much, and it will take a whole lot longer waiting for a warranty replacement as well. >:(

Quote
HobbyKing® Lithium Polymer Battery Warranty Policy.

Due to the complexity and delicate nature of Lithium Polymer Batteries, please note the following points prior to making a claim.

Please keep the following in mind before making a claim;
We check all battery pack voltages prior to shipping. It is a simple process and takes us 3 seconds per pack. Doing so assures us that the battery is fit for use, is within the voltage range and has no shorting.
This process does not remove slightly unbalanced packs.

1) You can only make a claim for 'Under voltage' the same day the parcel arrives and prior to the lipoly pack being charged or cycled. 'Under Voltage' means that 1 or more of the cells in you pack has a voltage lower than 3v per cell. After the battery has been cycled or used, no claim for 'under voltage' can be made.

2) We do not replace burnt batteries. All batteries are checked prior to shipping, if a short on the balance connector was to happen, it would happen prior to shipping. Burnt batteries are also impossible to examine, therefore they are not warranted.

3) We do not warrant crash damage, of any kind. If your pack shows signs of an impact or trauma, we will not replace it.

4) Never disassemble your pack. Regardless of your skill level, expertise or qualifications. We will never replace a disassembled or 'inspected' pack.

5) Rapid Capacity Loss. Should your pack fall well short of it's stated capacity, please indicate to us how you achieved capacity claim. We will test packs for charge and discharge values. Should the battery have severe capacity loss, we will test each cell for maximum and minimum voltage charge as well as I/O. This can indicate to us if the pack has been over-discharged. Packs which are over-discharged will not be replaced.

6) Because of the complexity and nature of these batteries, all packs must be returned to our Hong Kong office. Packs sent to any of our warranty agents, will be rejected.

7) Packs which have a cell voltage difference of less than .245v per cell cannot be replaced. Please balance your packs if your packs appears to be unbalanced.

8) Should you be too concerned about sending the parcel back to us due to safety reasons. We will not warrant the pack. Purchasing any battery from HobbyKing.com, constitutes an agreement to this warranty policy.
Each battery brand has it's own warranty time limit. Our standard Lipoly warranty limit is 30 days, unless otherwise stated in the product listing.

Quote
It is illegal to ship defective or damaged Lipos. (review your shipper's requirements). Will you cover the damages if the passenger aircraft catches fire over the Pacific while carrying your defective lipos? They were cheap, probably should just toss them

So, it looks like I definitely won't be returning this faulty pack!

I think I'll just pull it apart and convert it into a 7.4V pack for my son's R/C car instead.

Alan
 


Offline Bernie

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Re: Magic Pie VS "Older" model
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2010, 05:30:33 AM »
So Alan (Bikemad) gets 465 Watts from a 24V Battery in the Magic Pie motor. This explains why my 24V kit frightened the bejeepers outa me with its amazing performance. About seven years ago we imported a container of goods from China which included two electric Bikes. They were so weak, wouldn't pull yer old 4skin back!

What puzzles me is GM claim 250 Watts from the 24V Battery, how is it that it's so much higher in real life? Not that I'm complaining.

Offline Hardcore

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Re: Magic Pie VS "Older" model
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2010, 06:58:59 AM »
becuz 250w is mostly continious and that's a legal limit, but they don't say anything about max burst power :D and how long a burst power last... nobody knows about that so it's legal but more powerfull.

i hope you know what i'm talking about