Author Topic: ATTENTION!!DANGEROUS Front wheel Magic Pie  (Read 29230 times)

Offline Bikemad

  • Global Moderator
  • Professor
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,553
Re: What caused the incident?
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2011, 02:45:17 PM »
It's difficult to say what actually caused the failure, but I suspect that either two (or more) of the six MOSFETs have somehow short-circuited internally, or the chip that controls them has caused them to stay permanently closed simultaneously.
If one was on the positive switching side A+ and another on the negative switching side C-, this would result in the full battery voltage being put directly through two of the three sets of windings.  This would produce enough electromagnetic force to quickly stop the wheel, especially if B+ or B- was also switched.



Without any form of battery protection (Fuse, trip switch or BMS etc.), if two MOSFETs on the same phase wire were somehow switched (or short-circuited) at the same time (for example A+ and A-), this would instantly produce a complete short-circuit directly across the battery wires, drawing maximum current from the LiPo pack, which would instantly burn out the tracks on the circuit board, presumably accompanied by a very loud bang from the controller. :o

I don't know if a faulty hall sensor could cause this sort of failure, but I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility.

Reverse should have no effect. At least in my situation. If I hit the reverse button by mistake when riding it just stops the motor and I have to stop and then go in reverse just for a second before it will go forward again.

If reverse was enabled and the "Immediate" option had been selected from within the programmable options, I would have thought that there is a strong chance that some components could be put under tremendous strain if reverse was accidentally selected at speed with the throttle open. It would be like rolling backwards downhill at speed and then trying to stop by opening the throttle instead of using your brakes.

I would strongly recommend that anyone using LiPo packs, or similar packs without any form of inbuilt current regulation, should include either a simple fuse, or some form of current sensed circuit breaking device, to protect the battery and controller from severe damage, should a short-circuit fault occur, regardless of how it may have been caused!

Once a short-circuit has occurred, if your controller doesn't blow itself up (creating an open circuit), there's a very real chance that your LiPo pack can actually explode into flames! :o



Click the picture to see it full size.

Please notice that the above pictures are of one single cell, so just imagine what a whole pack exploding would be like. :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

Now ask yourself which you would prefer; a blown fuse? or a blown controller and/or an exploding battery pack? The choice is yours!

Alan
 
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 11:05:58 PM by Bikemad »

Offline Bingo

  • Confirmed
  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: ATTENTION!!DANGEROUS Front wheel Magic Pie
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2011, 08:36:52 PM »
Mr Imer

You say applied voltage doesn't matter? I'll be damned, I've been doing it wrong for 40 years.

I too had a controller fire. No one was hurt, the motor simply burned up. Obviously a poor design.


Offline Thaialien

  • Confirmed
  • Magic Undergrad
  • ***
  • Posts: 91
Re: ATTENTION!!DANGEROUS Front wheel Magic Pie
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2011, 01:32:56 PM »
Hi all
 maybe a good quailty RCCD with DC fault sensing could have all this ! (and no magic smoke )
Anyone ever though to use one ? on this application ?
Try to put a smile on the face of others it cost nothing ...by what you say !

Offline pilot

  • Confirmed
  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: ATTENTION!!DANGEROUS Front wheel Magic Pie
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2011, 02:34:04 PM »
Reverse was not connected and it was impossible to be selected by accident or on purpose.
 I insist saying that it was just a
simple and clear electronics failure that may  happen. I am wondering why GM doesn't use a simple
mechanical unlock mechanism for the direct drive MP. In the case of a motor lock up it could release
the wheel, save the riding guy and maybe a lot of money from GM.
I am not sure even if a fuse could be a solution for this problem. For sure it is a good protection
for the batteries but if a current burst caused the lock up of the wheel then I don't know if the
fuse could be enough fast to avoid it. I suppose that first a burst caused an initial lock up and
then the sides of the motor were moved and caused the permanent lock up.

Offline Andy

  • Confirmed
  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: ATTENTION!!DANGEROUS Front wheel Magic Pie
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2011, 03:42:03 AM »
Alan;
 in response to your theory of possible mosfet malfunction, would this not result in phase imbalance wich should trip an overload or is that only found on large industrial 3 phase motors. I have personally experienced phase imbalance on a 500hp and a 2000hp motor and they do begin to shake if the trip is slow to engage. Given the outcome for this poor gentleman should such a trip not be done by the controller? After all "Safety First"

Just a thought;
Andy

Offline MonkeyMagic

  • Cheeky Chimp
  • Technical Officer
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,041
Re: ATTENTION!!DANGEROUS Front wheel Magic Pie
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2011, 08:06:37 AM »
Not to push in your post Alan :D But in that case, there would be a serious amount of outstanding claims to various manufacturers.....

Like if you had a voltage spike from your power company/lightning etc. and your TV was runied, I don't think you would blame the TV manufacturer for not having in-built MOV's/Surge protection etc.

Same for a Car amplifier, if the MOSFETS short inside due to an issue with the input, speakers etc - and you did not have a fuse connected with your amplifer from the battery then you can damage your engine ECU etc. and I don't think the Car Audio manufacturer would be to blame (although many have in-built fuses anyway to protect this)

But you can get the gist... I'm not running a BMS with one of my GM batteries, and I have an in-line fuse connected to my wheel. It was around $5 with 10AWG wire I just soldered in-line with the battery. My main reason for this was to protect the battery, not so much the wheel but both are equally important.

Sorry if my post sounds like a bummer!

:D peace out