Author Topic: Magic Pie II Dual Drive  (Read 93113 times)

Offline GM Canada

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Re: Magic Pie II Dual Drive
« Reply #75 on: November 15, 2010, 01:58:53 PM »
Currently I am working out what I can best use all the free space inside the GM battery casing. I highly recommend using this before adding extra enclosures and running wires along the bike.

Inside the battery terminal end, I room for the following I'm relocating to neaten up and also increase security:
-6.8Ah 12v lithium battery
-12v motorcycle alarm, inbuilt shock sensor
-60A latching relay to turn the motor battery on/off (connected to the remote alarm for keyless use)
-DC socket to charge the lithium battery

I'm mounting a Turnigy meter on top of the battery with the wires through a hole on top that I will seal.

So as you can see there is a ton of room that surely gets the ideas happening!

I also want to goto a auto supply store or something and buy some gasket rubber sheet to cut out for both the battery end caps. Neither of them are sealed and have seen a couple of people on the forum here with water ingress.

Opening my casing was because I was considering making a fiberglass casing around the battery, and probably to cover my middle triangle part too. But then I thought "Why build a casing for a case??" I decided to seal off the battery really well, and add a few trinkets in there while I was at it.

I'll get some pics happening of inside the battery casing and post a topic on it as I'm sure others will find it useful.

Peace out MM


I Look forward to seeing what you can do in there. I did receive an email from a customer that put the controller in the battery before. I wasn't sure to beleive him or not and never did see any pictures. Be sure to put a link here to the new topic when you start it.

Gary

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Switching two battery packs together
« Reply #76 on: November 16, 2010, 02:24:12 AM »
Using a double pole switch in the ON position I imagine both CA would get the same readings,  a total of both batteries

In the OFF postiition I would get readings as I do now, a seperate readng on each CA.

Gary, As you're using a single throttle, your batteries are probably already joined by the negative terminals, albeit through the thin black throttle wires. If you join the battery negative leads together permanently with some heavy duty cable, you would only need to use a single pole switch on the positive leads to simply connect or isolate the batteries.

With the switch in the ON position each CA should still have different Ah, Amps and Watt readings etc. for each motor, but the voltage readings should be approximately the same on both.

You would need to add the two Ah readings together and then divide this figure by two, to determine what each battery has used.
For example, if after a run the front showed 5Ah used and the rear showed only 3Ah used, then 5+3 = 8, and 8/2 = 4, so 4Ah would have been used from each battery if they had been connected in parallel throughout the entire run.

It might not be a good idea to switch the batteries together if their voltages were significantly different, as the higher voltage pack would instantly deliver a very high current in an attempt to raise the lower voltage pack up to the same voltage level. Depending on how the BMS handles regen, this might cause the lower voltage battery to be subjected to a very fast charge, which could be at a much higher current than the cells are able to safely accept. :o

I hope this makes as much sense to you as it does to me. ;)

Alan
 
 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 02:27:06 AM by Bikemad »

Offline Leslie

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Re: Magic Pie II Dual Drive
« Reply #77 on: November 16, 2010, 06:44:02 AM »
Nice to see some activity here in the dual pie camp.  Some how you will figure out how to SuCk more amps out of your packs.  Would be nice to see one of you hit the Magic 100 amp mark. I'm putting bets on the Monkey getting there first.  One guy got into the high 70A mark but I think this controller failed.  

I think a successful mod should stand the time test at least.  Im still hoping my controller survives the Shunt Mod and only time will tell. But I did this through a 25 amp thermal breaker.  Works good like this,
 

I ran my single Pie and internal controller at 50 amps for more than three days to show it can be done in normal ambient temperatures.  But I just put it back to do 30 amps max 17 cont.  Summer is heading my way fast, and I don't need to be addicted to a 50 MP when it gets hot.

But still the motor never has been close to hot.  Maybe when the controllers are about to fail they start heating up everything inside the motor..

Hopefully with my Modded Pie I am going to be lucky.  Still haven't tried regen though.  ;D
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 06:53:13 AM by 317537 »

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Offline GM Canada

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Re: Switching two battery packs together
« Reply #78 on: November 16, 2010, 11:43:08 AM »

Gary, As you're using a single throttle, your batteries are probably already joined by the negative terminals, albeit through the thin black throttle wires. If you join the battery negative leads together permanently with some heavy duty cable, you would only need to use a single pole switch on the positive leads to simply connect or isolate the batteries.
 

Yesterday I picked up another small reel of 10 guage wire and I was thinking the same thing about the switch. All I could find in a single pole on/off switch was 25amp at 12 volts. I didn't think this would be good enough. Today I am going to try an electrical/electronics distributor. I was also thinking about using an electrical breaker for house wiring but I am not sure if an AC breaker is good in a DC circuit.

Gary

Offline Leslie

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Re: Magic Pie II Dual Drive
« Reply #79 on: November 16, 2010, 12:14:21 PM »
Ahh but where Monkey knows the mod may be different on a smaller wheel because of load bearing, and Gary has the two packs and a large diameter rim to push the hubs to the MAX.


Certainly the dual pies will come up on top of the power torque kings in these forums.  If I can do 50 amps easy two modded Pies with dual GM packs will eat the road.

Gary if you have any old broken controllers pull the shunts out of them and solder them into your Pie, this will put your controllers closer to their firmware ratings.

As you can see the Pie are internally limited.  I think this can cause some problems and solve some too.  The software takes over good enough if you allow 50 amps to the fets.

When looking at battery current supply specs  there are two ratings when there is actually four.

There is

Max peak amps
Max continuous amps.
Continuous amps.

When you see 50 amps max on my CA this is Max peak amps. My max continuous amps is closer to 30 amps.  This shows there is a 50 amp spike was able to make contact to the battery.  Same diff with regen but this spike making back to the battery can be what the doctor ordered for good controller operation.  However you don't want to see this spike occur so you set your amps back down, you just need the controller to able to do it.

Before the mod.  I noticed I could get 27 amps peak max and 15 max cont.  After the Mod I can get 30 amps max and 25 amps max cont.  Continuous sits around 15 amps.

It confines the peak and max cont range at nominal settings, brings back the high powered use of 48v mode and LVC with it, and IMO can allow good hardware contact between motor and pack for regen when occasional very small inductive events could erode the sensitive field effect architecture inside the fet..


in essence if you do the shunt mod properly it can be a savior.

The shunt is there to stop people from overbaking their motors on day three.  Solves a lot of problems.
The CA was then created to see what a system actually uses.
The mod is there to activate the software and controller to its full potential.
Then one can use the software to stop one from overbaking the motor.


Not everyone gets one of these cycle analyst.  I think if you monitor the current supply to 50 amps peak max and around 25 cont. Setting these levels of power usage in the software without a cycle analyst is not advised..

With the right cooling. EG the Magic Beef Cake heat sink mod.  The magic controller can do 90 amps peak max and 50 amps max continuous and 30 amps continuous.

Bring it on

Offline Leslie

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Re: Switching two battery packs together
« Reply #80 on: November 16, 2010, 12:29:52 PM »

Gary, As you're using a single throttle, your batteries are probably already joined by the negative terminals, albeit through the thin black throttle wires. If you join the battery negative leads together permanently with some heavy duty cable, you would only need to use a single pole switch on the positive leads to simply connect or isolate the batteries.
 

Yesterday I picked up another small reel of 10 guage wire and I was thinking the same thing about the switch. All I could find in a single pole on/off switch was 25amp at 12 volts. I didn't think this would be good enough. Today I am going to try an electrical/electronics distributor. I was also thinking about using an electrical breaker for house wiring but I am not sure if an AC breaker is good in a DC circuit.
Gary

Are you looking for a good DC switch.

Two goodies are the 60 amp polarized latching relay switch. These use 0 watts to keep closed or open.  And you just need a 470 ohm resistor to the coil and a centre on of SPDT switch with reverse the polarity on each switch throw.

If you add a 470 uf bipolar cap over the coil and use a 5 watt 470 ohm resistor it will precharge the controller and take away much of the spark over your contact.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/2-PCS-12V-coil-polarized-latching-relays-60A-250V-AC-/160460229499?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item255c2ccb7b

And Im using a solid state AC/DC relay switch ATM rated at 40 Amps DC.  The package is isolated so you could thermal glue one of these inside the case.

Here is one rated at 60 amps.  I got mine using as little as 10ma to switch on.

I have tested regen with it when I limited my bike to 32kph so the results were bound to be very small.  As you know Regen scares me ATM.


« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 12:33:32 PM by 317537 »

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Offline Leslie

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Re: Magic Pie II Dual Drive
« Reply #81 on: November 16, 2010, 01:15:20 PM »


Gary

This circuit, don't let it send you dizzy, it is very easy.  You can glue the resistor and solder the diodes and cap straight onto the relay and switch package. So no PCB required.

And this wont make any heat when it either on or off, as the momentary switch will only allow as much power to it for as long as you hold it on.  So 99.99% efficient and heat glue is not out of the equation when putting this stuff together,.

The zeners or TVS will stop any inductive spikes when you are switching. I don't think these relays have a diode in them.

No precharge here as I wanted to keep the picture simple and you need two diodes to carry precharge off the bipolar switching.


Ohh and the SPDT switch only sees about 14v 100ma max with the reverse polarity switch to the coil so no major short occurs to the pack if the DPDT switch goes south.

This circuit is very safe to your gear and extremely light on the power so if you forget to turn you controller off for a week it wont be any of this circuit draining your pack..
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 01:19:17 PM by 317537 »

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Offline GM Canada

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Re: Magic Pie II Dual Drive
« Reply #82 on: November 18, 2010, 02:05:48 PM »
Thanks for the diagram Leslie. It may seem simple but it does seem unnessasary. I imagine I will be just hardwaring the two batteries in parallel with a plug to disconect them from each other. If I determine there is more power in parallel I will probably just leave it that way. I have the materials now so its off to the shed to get it wired up. Hopefully in time for my ride to work today! Not sure if Im taking the bike to work yet as its only 4 degrees celcius and rain or wet snow is forcast.  :'(

Gary

Offline GM Canada

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Re: Gary's Magic Pie II Dual Drive
« Reply #83 on: November 20, 2010, 02:00:39 PM »

It looks very nice, but I think it would look even better with some suitable side covers on the trailer. ;)

Alan




OMG did you add this edited picture or was it there all the time? How could I have missed this, I guess thats what happens when you read the forum on your phone. It looks great! I think I might actually check into doing this over the winter. I do have a metal fabrication shop that does things for me at very reasonable prices. I think I'll take my trailor and this picture over there once the riding season is done. I also just noticed you snuck a Magic Pie in the trailor wheel as well. I don't think Ill go that far, But I do have one in stock that would fit. Hmmm...

Gary
 
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 04:15:34 PM by Bikemad »

Offline GM Canada

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Re: Magic Pie II Dual Drive
« Reply #84 on: November 27, 2010, 12:45:36 PM »
Ok here are some recent statistics taken from my Cyclyst Analyst after running my battery packs in parralel. This is from the same ride as my previous video but with an incredible 50kph head wind all the way. This certainly did a beating on my remaining voltage after the ride. If there was any increase in power by parraleling the packs it was not really that noticable. What I did notice was my batteries did wear down alot faster.

The first picture shows my power remaining at 41 volts. It was at 48 volts before. The amps used up are at 9.619 and 10.05 and before they were at 8.801 and 8.416. This could be from increased power but most likely the strong headwind did the most damage here.

The second picture shows my power recovered by regen, the left (rear motor) recovered 3.7 percent before and 2 percent this time, no real difference on the right.

The third picture shows the spikes from regen are almost identical. The amps used are at 18.98 + 15.90 totalling 34.88 amps. The previous ride with un-parralel batteries showed them at 19.38 + 15.25 = 34.63 amps. So it is a higher number but not enough to be able to tell the difference when riding.

The forth picture shows really no difference from before. Nothing really worth mentioning.


My findings: I could not really feel any difference in power when paralleling the packs. I did like reading different statistics on battery voltage before. Once in parallel the was no difference shown in the voltage. so I could monitor the amps drawn separately as before but could not monitor the batteries separately.

In conclusion: I will be removing the parallel wires from my batteries. I liked it better when they were separately wired.

Gary


« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 01:21:16 PM by GM Canada »

Offline RRR

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Re: Magic Pie II Dual Drive
« Reply #85 on: December 06, 2010, 10:58:26 PM »
 :(  HELP............How I can connect my dual - GM?

Is this good battery for Dual drive?
- http://www.scib.jp/en/index.htm - 6000 Cycle Life
- http://www.altairnano.com/profiles/investor/fullpage.asp?f=1&BzID=546&to=cp&Nav=0&LangID=1&s=0&ID=12076
   20000 Cycle Life
- http://www.ioxus.com/hybridcapacitorFAQs.html - 20000 Cycle Life !!!
- http://www.evassemble.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=151 - 2000 Cycle Life

In this picture 'dual GM' I don't see connection with 1 box of battery. Is this correct?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 09:04:05 PM by RRR »

Offline GM Canada

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Re: Magic Pie II Dual Drive
« Reply #86 on: December 06, 2010, 11:32:35 PM »
:(  HELP............How I can connect my dual - GM?

My first suggestion would be to read this thread from the beginning. It has wiring diagrams and conversation pertaining directly to your question.

Gary

Offline MonkeyMagic

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Re: Magic Pie II Dual Drive
« Reply #87 on: December 08, 2010, 06:42:32 PM »
RRR that battery will be okay for dual drive if you buy like 6 of the 24v ones and wear the 12kg+ in a backpack or elsewhere unobtrusive haha what made you think of those??

I would go for 2 x 48v12Ah batteries or 2 x 24v GM batteries wired in series, there are plenty of other options but those seem to nearly have a higher charge rating than discharge.

:)


Offline GM Canada

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Re: Gary's Magic Pie II Dual Drive
« Reply #88 on: July 06, 2011, 11:06:51 PM »

It looks very nice, but I think it would look even better with some suitable side covers on the trailer. ;)

Alan




Hi Alan

Remember suggesting an addition to the trailor?

TaDA!!



It took a while but I finally got it done!



Gary

« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 10:19:33 PM by Bikemad »

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Magic Pie II Dual Drive
« Reply #89 on: July 07, 2011, 12:44:19 AM »

Gary, that looks great, very smart and professional now, but be warned, the speed cameras now have something to capture! ;D

I was also going to suggest that you run a strip of red LEDs up the rear of the flagpole for nighttime visibility:



But then I noticed that the pole was no longer being used.

I'm now waiting to see some pictures of Andrew's wheel cover before I make any further suggestions ;)

Alan