Author Topic: Ignition Switch fo MP5?  (Read 7037 times)

Offline Guyblat

  • Confirmed
  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 28
Ignition Switch fo MP5?
« on: September 11, 2016, 08:17:30 PM »
I'm building an MP5 with these battery specs:
High-capacity 48V25AH LiFePO4 battery parameters:

Discharge cut-off voltage: 45V
Rated discharge current: 30A
Instantaneous maximum discharge current: 50A
Battery pack capacity: 25AH ± 3%
Charge cut-off voltage: 58 V

What is a good rocker/toggle switch? I am going to put it on the negative (-) side (post load), so it has less current running through it.

How about this one?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AC-250V-15A-125V-20A-ON-OFF-ON-3-Position-DPDT-Momentary-Toggle-Switch-DT-/252471360099?hash=item3ac8773a63:g:I5YAAOSwZVlXkkQn

Offline Bikemad

  • Global Moderator
  • Professor
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,523
Re: Battery Switch and Precharge details for MP5
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2016, 11:19:13 AM »
Hi Guy,

In your particular case, the maximum current that the switch needs to handle will be determined by the maximum current setting in the motor's controller, as this will be lower than your battery's maximum 50A.

If you have the controller set to the maximum 30A setting, the switch must be able to withstand this amount of current for short periods.

The 15A switch you suggested would be able to supply the required 30A motor power if both pairs of contacts were wired in parallel, but it wouldn't be very practical to use as it is a momentary switch instead of a latching switch. Basically you would have to continually hold the switch in the ON position to provide power for the controller.  ::)

The switch also needs to withstand the very short, but high current burst that occurs when the contacts are first closed and the current quickly flows from the battery to the controller to fill the controller's capacitors up with battery voltage.
This "precharge" process only takes a fraction of a second, but the high current involved will cause a large spark (arcing) between the switch contacts every time the switch is turned on after the controller has been powered off for at least 30 seconds.

This arcing will cause burning on the metal surface of the switch contacts, which will eventually result in a high resistance and poor current flow between the contacts.

To prolong the life of your switch, I suggest that you connect a simple push button switch (along with a suitable current limiting resistor) across the contacts of the main On/Off switch to enable the battery power to be turned on without the switch contacts sparking each time.
To power up the controller you would simply press and hold the "precharge" button for a second or two before switching on the main power switch. This allows the capacitors in the controller to be charged up to battery voltage at a much slower rate, which will eliminate the high current burst that causes the arcing (and possible failure) of the switch contacts.

Here is a basic layout showing how the switches and precharge resistor should be wired:





The double pole rocker switch shown in the above diagram has both poles (pairs of contacts) connected in parallel to enable it to handle twice as much current, as both set of contacts will be equally sharing the total current flow.
This means that a double pole single throw (DPST) switch with a contact rating of 16A can handle 32A when the current is switched using both sets of contacts.

Check out this post for more details on the switches.

A 1 watt resistor of between 10 and 100 Ohms seems to work nicely with 24V, 36V and 48V batteries, but if you have lights that are powered by the main battery, make sure they are turned off prior to precharging the controller to prevent the resistor from being unnecessarily overloaded while the precharge button is pressed.

If you only have ¼ Watt resistors, you can simply use four resistors wired in a series parallel configuration to produce the same value resistor that can carry four times as much current:



Also, do not try to operate the throttle with the main switch turned off and the precharge button held down, or the high current will burn out the resistor!

I am going to put it on the negative (-) side (post load), so it has less current running through it.

It is common practice to place the switch on the high voltage (Positive +) connection, as this ensures that you don't have any live wires being supplied with no path to return to ground (Negative -).

The current flowing through the Negative wire will be identical to the current flowing through the Positive wire, as the current is always the same at any point in a series circuit.  ;)

Alan
 
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 11:17:06 PM by Bikemad »

Offline Jaffa

  • Confirmed
  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: Ignition Switch fo MP5?
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2016, 09:36:26 AM »
hello,
i have it like this.

Offline Guyblat

  • Confirmed
  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 28
Re: Ignition Switch fo MP5?
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2016, 05:29:53 AM »
Alan,

Thanks! How did you figure out that a 1 watt 30 ohm resistor is what I needed? If I use the formula:
R = V / I (Resistance = Voltage divided by Current)
I come up with R(1.6 ohm) = V (48) / I (30amps)
Which means I need a 1.6 ohm resistor?
Am I even close?

Also, how do I attach the 1w 30ohm resistor to that switch? I can't find the right connector online. Maybe I solder it?

Thanks!
Guy
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 07:01:24 AM by Guyblat »

Offline Bikemad

  • Global Moderator
  • Professor
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,523
Re: Ignition Switch fo MP5?
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2016, 02:34:36 PM »
Hi Guy,

1.6 Ohms is a bit too low for a precharge resistor. The precharge resistor is required to limit the current passing through the momentary push button switch, which is only held down for a second or two to precharge the capacitors in the controller just before the main battery switch is operated, the resistor must not be used to provide current to directly power the motor, as this would instantly cook the resistor!  :o

The 30 Ohms value was suggested after experimentation with different value resistors, if the resistance is too high, it will not fully charge the capacitors, and if the resistance is too low, it passes too much current and still causes the spark.

If you would like to try and calculate a more specific resistor value, check out this link.

The terminals on the momentary push button switch shown in the diagram are intended for wires etc. to be soldered directly onto them.

Alan
 
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 02:37:23 PM by Bikemad »

Offline Guyblat

  • Confirmed
  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 28
Re: Ignition Switch fo MP5?
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2016, 01:43:55 AM »
Alan,

Thanks for that info: I bought "1W 1% Tolerance 30 Ohm Metal Oxide Film Resistor." Is that what you recommended?

Guy

Offline Bikemad

  • Global Moderator
  • Professor
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,523
Re: Ignition Switch fo MP5?
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2016, 03:28:46 PM »
That resistor should do the job nicely.  ;)

Alan
 

Offline Guyblat

  • Confirmed
  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 28
Re: Ignition Switch fo MP5?
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2016, 04:44:46 AM »
How does the setup look? See attached pictures*
Guy

Offline Bikemad

  • Global Moderator
  • Professor
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,523
Re: Ignition Switch fo MP5?
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2016, 11:24:23 PM »
It appears to be wired correctly and the soldered joints look OK.

I prefer to use soldered joints instead of those push on crimp connectors as they produce a better and more compact connection.

If the casing material flexes easily, you might want to fit a wooden spacer between the two switches and then wrap them securely together with insulation tape to prevent the resistor wire from flexing each time the switches are pressed, otherwise the resistor wire could eventually break due to metal fatigue.

Alan

Offline Guyblat

  • Confirmed
  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 28
Re: Ignition Switch fo MP5?
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2017, 05:42:21 PM »
Alan,

I'm getting my switches burned out after 6 months. Is there a way to get the MP5 to power down at the controller level?

There is an on/off switch on the throttle, what's that for and can I wire that up to be the on/off switch with some kind of step up or step down?

*attached is photo

thanks,
Guy

Offline Bikemad

  • Global Moderator
  • Professor
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,523
Re: Ignition Switch fo MP5?
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2017, 11:24:59 PM »
Hi Guy,

Unfortunately, there is no simple way to remove the constant residual current draw from the controller without disconnecting the battery supply by using a high current switch, a high current relay, or physically unplugging it.

I suggest that you check that the precharge resistor is still working correctly, because a failed resistor would not be able to prevent the arcing at the switch contacts when you initially move the switch to the ON position, and this arcing can quickly cause the switch contacts to fail.

Switching ON without first pressing the precharge button would also produce arcing at the switch contacts.  ;)

However, if the precharge resistor is still working (and you have remembered to use it every time) but the switch has still failed, you will need to use a higher current switch, or use a pair of those switches wired in parallel with each other to effectively create a four pole switch.

Using two switches in parallel will reduce the current passing through each switch (and both of its poles) by 50%, giving the contacts a much easier life.

You would still need to press the precharge button as normal, but would then switch both switches to the ON position before use (but make sure that you switch them both to the OFF position again to cut the power completely).

The red switch on the throttle is only suitable for very low current, and is usually wired to switch an LED headlight ON and OFF.

Alan