Author Topic: MP4 rear wheal jumps out of frame  (Read 7971 times)

Offline Haggan

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MP4 rear wheal jumps out of frame
« on: May 27, 2015, 11:12:36 AM »
Hej

I just switch to summer tiers and the engine popped out of the frame. And I it looks like I cant get it to not pop out.
Have I destroyed the opportunity to have engine now on my bike?

Any tips to secure the wheel? I have a momentarm but it did not really help.

 :( :( :(

Offline Bikemad

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Re: MP4 rear wheel jumps out of frame
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2015, 01:00:03 PM »
What is actually causing the axle to pop out of the dropout slots, are the slots broken or damaged?

If you can post a couple of close up pictures showing how the axle locates in the dropouts, we might be able to understand why this is happening and hopefully find a solution.

Alan
 

Offline Haggan

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Re: MP4 rear wheal jumps out of frame
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2015, 02:54:02 PM »
Sorry for  late respons. I fixed the issue. Buying two new strong momentarms to hold it in place. I think I teard out the aliminum frame.

Offline AdamB

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Re: MP4 rear wheal jumps out of frame
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2015, 04:32:07 PM »
Are you using disk brakes? Are your calipers grabbing the rear of the rotor (pointing to the front)? That could likely be the source. Reverse it so that the calipers grab the front (point to the back) & now instead of the forces seeking to pull out the wheel, it forces it into the frame.

Many experts believe that disk brakes are being used backwards because of this fact. The wheel forces are basically forcing the axle to climb out in an almost unavoidable manner & encourage the very rounding that is the bane of ebikers everywhere!

Adam
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 04:08:46 AM by AdamB »

Offline Haggan

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Re: MP4 rear wheal jumps out of frame
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2015, 08:02:14 PM »
Yes using disk brakes.
Hum I do not understand what you mean. I have a scott sporters 30 if thats help

http://www.evanscycles.com/products/scott/sportster-30-2014-hybrid-bike-ec056044

Is the caliper the thing that pushes on the brake disk?

Offline AdamB

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Re: MP4 rear wheal jumps out of frame
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2015, 03:02:14 AM »
Simply put...

(A) Is the caliper (part that grabs the disk/rotor to brake) behind the fork & disk/rotor with the mouth of the calipers facing towards the front (like "typical" bike)?

Or...

(B) Is the caliper in front of the fork & disk/rotor with the mouth of the calipers towards the rear (i.e. reverse of "typical")?

Picture in your mind the tire spinning normally & moving forward... Then a caliper behind the fork & disk/rotor (i.e. A) grabs the rotor to brake... The combined forces make it want to rotate & move downward, foward & outwards!

Now picture the same wheel spinning & moving forward... But the caliper is in front of the fork & disk/rotor (i.e. B) & grabbing... Now the combined forces are  upwards, rearward & inward into the strongest parts of the mounting system...

It's actually just common sense & physics! It's no surprise that hub motors (being far more spun mass, inertia, torque & additional sources of force to continue moving [motor] then pedal bikes) would not react well to this!

E-bikers try to fight this situation by using torque arms (I assume what you called "moment arms" or momentum arms [is what you're saying] are actually torque arms)...

But... It's a bandaid on a gushing major wound! Torque arms are not a bad things in general & given the lack of decent support within the mount, should be used (best are like doc bass torque arms)! But it does not fix that we are ignoring the serious catastrophic design flaw within the system.

As I understand from your post, you actually had some torque arms in place at the time... So clearly it won't entirely solve or prevent the underlying flawed design!

The real answer is a 2 part one.

(A) However it's done, use beefier, heavy duty forks & axle mounts either from the factory or with add on torque arms that are integrated into the fork/mount as single piece (like the doc bass arms)....

& (not or)

(B) Relocating the caliper in front of the fork & disk/rotor!

This problem isn't unique to hub motors & e-bikes. It 1st was widely noticed with quick release wheels. People discovered that if damaged or not properly used, it readily climbed out of the fork & axle mount when the disk brake was used. Some then realized, if the caliper are put in front of the fork & disk/rotor, then even if the quick mount was damaged or improperly used, it would never result in the wheel climbing out of the fork & axle mounts...

However (as far as I know) no one connected the dots between hub motors & quick release wheels until I did. Since then, just about all the experts I asked agreed it was the same underlying design flaw & solution!

Technically, the design flaw is present in all disk brake bikes with calipers behind the fork & disk/rotor... It's just that the majority of the time, the forces involved aren't strong enough & the fork/axle mount is not weak enough for that problem to show itself. Unfortunately, that's not the case with e-bikes/hub motors & weakened forks/axle mounts!

Adam

Offline AdamB

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Re: MP4 rear wheal jumps out of frame
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2015, 03:54:33 AM »
I can't see your picture but try this one...

Yes, the caliper is attached to the brake line/cable that runs from the brake levers & then transmits that force through the brake pads against the disk/rotor to brake the wheel (or break the wheel & the rider too, depending on how you look at it- sorry for the bad pun)  ;)

The caliper is the black thing around the shiny metal disk/rotor... You can also see what I mean by behind the fork & disk/rotor in this photo...

https://www.google.ca/search?q=caliper+disk+brake+bike+front&client=ms-android-rogers-ca&biw=598&bih=65&prmd=inmv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIg4qut-CYyAIV0YuSCh1UkAiY#imgrc=n2RTylOnpyg5IM%3A

It took some work but I finally found the article that I read recently that may be better at explaining this stuff... Still appears no one else is connecting the dots to e-bikers yet but it makes perfect sense once you understand the quick release issues... Unfortunately even within the strictly bike quick release community, most are wholly unaware of the situation... That awareness is even less in e-bikes...

https://web.archive.org/web/20121005235921/http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/disk_and_quick_release/

http://sheldonbrown.com/skewers.html#disc

Adam
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 04:05:41 AM by AdamB »

Offline Haggan

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Re: MP4 rear wheal jumps out of frame
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2015, 04:39:55 AM »
Thanks yes sorry I mean torque arms. Just sort of writing the Swedish word but in English.

I had problem with the back wheal so the caliper is sort of in front there so that should not be the case right?

http://www.engwah.net/web/newsite/Images/SPORSTER%2030%202011.JPG


I think one problem is the axel was a bit to small to the big GM motor axel. And to much force from the motor.


Offline AdamB

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Re: MP4 rear wheal jumps out of frame
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2015, 05:49:26 AM »
Take a pic showing how it's all arranged & a close up of the dropouts itself. From there we can offer better advice...

Adam

Don't worry about language difficulties, we will figure it out. The real confusion stems from autocorrect! Btw- my bad! I saw earlier autocorrect changed "grabbing" to "having" in my earlier post... Sorry for the confusion it caused.

So take the picture & we will figure out how to solve things! I have a few ideas but until I see the pictures, we can't know what you really need for sure.

Adam

Offline Haggan

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Re: MP4 rear wheal jumps out of frame
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2015, 12:08:39 PM »
Hej

Here is some photos of how it looks like now.
Will take photo later when I switch tiers.

https://goo.gl/photos/v6hqikVSYxtvhuUs8