Author Topic: Human Powered Vehicle and a Magic Pie 3 with Capacitors?!?  (Read 6246 times)

Offline UofT HPVDT

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Human Powered Vehicle and a Magic Pie 3 with Capacitors?!?
« on: October 13, 2012, 08:13:01 PM »
Hi everyone,

My name is Alex and I am a part of the Human Powered Vehicle Design Team at the University of Toronto in Canada. For our latest vehicle we have began preliminary research on regenerative braking. Due to the nature of the races and the speeds our bikes hit, regenerative braking has a lot of potential. However, batteries are not allowed, which leads me to the main question: would it be possible to use ultra-capacitors with the Magic Pie 3, instead of batteries?

An example scenario might be: slowing down from 60 km/h to 15 km/h for a sharp turn in the time of about 5 seconds, and then releasing the energy that was stored from electronically braking.

I am not too familiar with the way the controller functions and was wondering how much power does it require to operate? (Would we need to generate the power to operate the controller before being able to store energy in the capacitors?)

Since capacitors will not be as current limited when it comes to charging, is there the potential to recover closer to ~75% of the kinetic energy lost from braking?

Also I read that the MP3 freewheels with some resistance. Roughly how much resistance is there if the battery/capacitors are not connected?


Any advice, comments and thoughts are greatly appreciated.

If you aren't sure what I mean when I say human powered vehicle check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bc6cP6Zu2ec


Alex

Offline Lollandster

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Re: Human Powered Vehicle and a Magic Pie III with Capacitors?!?
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2012, 11:51:03 AM »
Have you considered mechanical batteries? FIA Formula 1 uses a kinetic energy recovery system (basically a flywheel that stores the energy) for the exact same application, theirs are just a bit bigger at 60kW.

I don't think the controller needs a battery to start regenerating. If I disconnect my battery and start turning the wheel (SmartPie) my Cycle Analyst turns on. I have however heard that without a battery (or another load like a big cap) you might damage the electronics in the controller. The freewheeling capability on the SmartPie isn't very good (stops after ~3sec if I spin it by hand) and I have heard it's even worse on the MP III.

Edit: just realized my disc break was dragging, so after fixing that the freewheeling time is closer to 5 sec.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 12:26:55 PM by lollandster »
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Offline atcspaul

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Re: Human Powered Vehicle and a Magic Pie III with Capacitors?!?
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2012, 12:29:23 PM »
i was just going to let you know something was wrong. Smart Pie freewheels unbelievably compaired to the magic

Offline UofT HPVDT

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Re: Human Powered Vehicle and a Magic Pie III with Capacitors?!?
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2012, 02:35:22 PM »
Have you considered mechanical batteries? FIA Formula 1 uses a kinetic energy recovery system (basically a flywheel that stores the energy) for the exact same application, theirs are just a bit bigger at 60kW.

I don't think the controller needs a battery to start regenerating. If I disconnect my battery and start turning the wheel (SmartPie) my Cycle Analyst turns on. I have however heard that without a battery (or another load like a big cap) you might damage the electronics in the controller. The freewheeling capability on the SmartPie isn't very good (stops after ~3sec if I spin it by hand) and I have heard it's even worse on the MP III.

Edit: just realized my disc break was dragging, so after fixing that the freewheeling time is closer to 5 sec.


Thanks for the reply! We have pretty much ruled out any KERS due to risk of failure. With that much energy in a flywheel and the possibility of crashing, it poses more life threatening injuries than a capacitor bank.

And the fact that the Cycle Analyst turns on seems promising. (It is only powered by the positive terminal of the battery I think?)

In regards to freewheeling, is it just the magnetic field that slows it down when it's not connected to power?

 Is it possible to have the controller working just enough to remove the resistance and let the rider pedalling do the rest? Or is that only an option on the PRO 902?

Offline truly_bent

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Re: Human Powered Vehicle and a Magic Pie III with Capacitors?!?
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2012, 02:07:23 AM »
I should think that a simple resistor network would allow a variable minimum voltage offset above zero. This would provide an adjustable minimum voltage into the controller when the throttle was fully released.

I had a quick look at the Lyen controller parameters and I didn't see anything offhand that you could use to set a minimum rpm. The GM software may have something (i thought I had it on file). It's worth taking a look there first.

Doesn't having an active motor in the loop violate the intent of the race though?

Jeff
Burley Canto recumbent w/ MP II, Lyen 18FET controller, 48V 20AH LiFeP04, Cycle Analyst, and 4 pounds of zip-ties

Offline UofT HPVDT

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Re: Human Powered Vehicle and a Magic Pie III with Capacitors?!?
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2012, 03:23:17 AM »
I should think that a simple resistor network would allow a variable minimum voltage offset above zero. This would provide an adjustable minimum voltage into the controller when the throttle was fully released.

I had a quick look at the Lyen controller parameters and I didn't see anything offhand that you could use to set a minimum rpm. The GM software may have something (i thought I had it on file). It's worth taking a look there first.

Doesn't having an active motor in the loop violate the intent of the race though?

Jeff


Thanks for the idea, that sounds like it could work. For our situation, there is only energy storage allowed in capacitors, and they would have to start at empty. This way, any energy we are putting in to reduce the freewheeling resistance would have to first be generated by our rider. So an active motor would only be using the energy from the rider, and with any losses, the bike without the motor has the advantage.

However, the race we are designing our vehicle for, (ASME HPV Challenge) is all about making vehicles that are practical, meaning they have to be able to maneuver sharp turns, come to complete full stops at stop signs, carry "groceries", etc. (Instead of just going really fast in a straight line)

If a big enough portion of the energy lost when braking for stop signs and turns can be re-used, then the constant additional power to run the motor at a "speed matching" level (closer to a freewheel) will likely be worth the implementation.

That leads to another question: How exactly does the regenerative function work? Does it regenerate regardless of whether the electric brake is engaged?

If pedalling against the resistance is indeed charging the capacitors by "regenerative braking", what kinda of efficiency can we expect? (Does the fact that we are using capacitors instead of batteries increase the energy stored from ~15% to above 50%?)