Author Topic: Motor assisted road bike  (Read 9546 times)

Offline Tbnrider

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Motor assisted road bike
« on: June 06, 2013, 09:32:27 PM »
Hi

I am an experienced cyclist but a total newbie to E-bikes.  I am looking into building an electric drive kit that can be fitted to one of my road bikes just to help me up hills.  I am considering the 902 24V front wheel motor and a simple control system that can be quickly and easily fitted to my road bike for some types of rides, and removed just as easily to revert to a pure road bike for others. On a typical E-bike trip I would probably use only the pedals for 90% of the trip, and the motor assist only for some of the hills.

So I have a number of initial questions about the motor and control systems and will probably have more as I get into this project.
How do I post my questions?

Roy

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Motor assisted road bike
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2013, 11:30:20 PM »

Hi Roy andto the forum.

Any questions you may have can be posted here, unless you feel another topic (either new or existing) would be more suitable.

Alan

Offline Tbnrider

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Re: Motor assisted road bike
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2013, 02:43:32 AM »
My first question concerns the 902 geared motor.  It is reported to freewheel and offer no resistance to pedalling. My question is how does it freewheel?

Is there a one way clutch somewhere in the gear train such that it freewheels if the wheel is rotated when the power is shut off or when the bike is pedalled faster than the motor is running? (In this case, there couldn't be any regenerative braking action)
or
Is the gear train physically disconnected from the motor when the power is off, and is re-connected when the power is on and the motor is running? (In this case if the bike were pedalled faster than the motor is running, the pedalling action would drive the motor faster.)

Also, when the motor is freewheeling, are any of the gears inside the hub being driven to rotate, but are just not under any load?

Roy

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Motor assisted road bike
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2013, 11:41:32 AM »
Is there a one way clutch somewhere in the gear train such that it freewheels if the wheel is rotated when the power is shut off or when the bike is pedalled faster than the motor is running? (In this case, there couldn't be any regenerative braking action)

Yes, there is a unidirectional clutch (freewheel device) which allows the motor to drive the wheel, but not be driven by it.

Is the gear train physically disconnected from the motor when the power is off, and is re-connected when the power is on and the motor is running? (In this case if the bike were pedalled faster than the motor is running, the pedalling action would drive the motor faster.)

No, the gears are constantly meshed but the motor cannot be driven because of the freewheel unit, therefore no regen or electrodynamic braking is possible.

Also, when the motor is freewheeling, are any of the gears inside the hub being driven to rotate, but are just not under any load?

Yes, the three planet gears and their carrier rotate freely when the wheel turns faster than the motor.
Check out the following post for more details: How the minimotor freewheels.

Alan
 

Offline Tbnrider

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Re: Motor assisted road bike
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2013, 03:48:00 PM »
Thank you Alan.  An excellent explanation of the planetary gear train in the 902 hub.

Next question is, what are the absolute minimum controls needed?
I am looking for the simplest and lightest drive system possible. I have no need of a horn. lights, cruise control, regenerative braking, pedelec, etc. since the only time I would be using the motor drive would be to help when climbing a hill.
So could I get away with simply a thumb-operated throttle and a means of shutting power off?

The thumb throttle apparently has a switch on it....could that switch be used as a power shutoff? Or would I need additional switch or control(s)?

I envisage encountering a hill and, when I start to find the pedalling difficult, applying some throttle to help.  The more throttle I apply, the more power is fed to the motor, and the more current is drawn.  There could be a danger of applying too much throttle and exceeding the current limit of the motor, so I might need a readily-visible ammeter (or warning light system) to be able to limit the current with the throttle setting.

Is my thinking correct?  Or is there something about the control system that I am missing?

Is the thumb throttle spring loaded, or does it stay wherever it is set?

Roy

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Motor assisted road bike
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2013, 11:29:20 PM »
Hi Roy, the thumb throttle is spring loaded to return to the off position when thumb pressure is removed.

The switch on the throttle unit could be connected to the brake switch wiring so that it would disable the throttle when the switch is pressed in, but it is not suitable for switching the battery current on and off (check out this post for alternative power switches).

In addition to the throttle, for safety reasons (and often for legal reasons too) it is advisable to have both of the brake switches connected so that the motor power is automatically turned off when either of the brakes are applied.

By customising the wiring, you could have both brake switches and the throttle permanently fitted to your bike and simply connect all three to the speed controller using a PS2 keyboard extension lead cut in half (the male plug could be wired to the controls and the female socket wired to the controller).
This would make it much easier to remove the controller, motor and battery by leaving the controls permanently attached to the bike with minimal wiring and one neat little connector.

You should be able to limit the maximum current using the USB programming lead and GM's software, but you could also fit a self-resetting circuit breaker to ensure you don't accidentally overload the motor.

Alan
 
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 12:21:03 AM by Bikemad »

Offline e-lmer

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Re: Motor assisted road bike
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2013, 05:36:38 AM »
I might add that your ears are excellent at indicating an overload,  if you hear it,   back off the throttle.

Offline Tbnrider

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Re: Motor assisted road bike
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2013, 05:21:57 PM »
Hi Alan
Thanks for the additional information.

the thumb throttle is spring loaded to return to the off position when thumb pressure is removed
In addition to the throttle, for safety reasons (and often for legal reasons too) it is advisable to have both of the brake switches connected so that the motor power is automatically turned off when either of the brakes are applied.


The problem is I can't install the brake levers that have the switches on them.  A road bike has drop handlebars and a different type of brake lever. But I assume that letting the throttle spring back to its off position also does an adequate job of shutting the motor off?

When climbing a hill, my hands are usually on the top of the bars so the throttle would be on the top as well.  I don't usually have to operate the brakes on a hill, but if I do, I have to move my hands to a completely different position.  So if I let go of the throttle with my right hand to operate the right brake, and if I had a dead-man's switch on the left bar that I would have to let go to operate the left brake, then would that work out well enough for safety and legalities?

(I would like to avoid having to leave any part of the electric drive system or controls permanently on the bike, but I think I could attach a throttle and a dead-man's switch with easily-removable clamps.)

Also, I have been considering the 24 Volt system, primarily because it seemed to allow me the most options.  Should I be considering the 36 Volt system instead?  What are the pros and cons of each? (I realise the higher voltage would be more efficient electrically......lower current, etc.)

Roy

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Motor assisted road bike
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2013, 02:40:57 AM »
Hi Roy, relying on the spring return of the throttle to shut of the power would be fine if problems never occurred, but real life is never that simple.
If water finds its way into the throttle unit (or inside the throttle connector) the electrical conductivity of the water can alloy a full throttle signal voltage to be sent to the controller, even with the throttle fully released. :o

A dead-man's switch connected to the brake/power cut-off wires would be a good idea for typical braking use, but you might find it a bit annoying if you needed to change gear, scratch your nose or indicate a left turn with your left arm etc. while riding with power assistance up a steep hill. ;)

It might be possible to use a micro-switch on the thumb throttle to activate the power cut-off function upon release, but this would still be a problem if the thumb throttle became stuck open due to a broken return spring etc.

The choice of battery is not as straightforward as you might imagine, as there are many factors that you may want to consider before deciding on which battery would be the best option for you:
  • Battery cell type (LiFePo4, LiMn, LiPo or NiMh etc.)
  • Battery style (rack mounted, frame mount, water bottle mount or seat post mount etc.)
  • Battery capacity (8, 10, 12, 15 or 20Ah etc.)
  • Battery size (physical dimensions) and weight
  • Required range under power
  • Ease of charging
  • Number of expected charging cycles (life expectancy)
  • Maximum and continuous current output
  • Built in Battery Management System (BMS)
  • Security
  • Ease of removal and portability
  • Safety
  • Cost
People will obviously prioritise the above requirements differently according to their individual preferences and requirements.

I prefer cheap, high power and lightweight battery packs, and by fabricating my own packs it allows me to easily experiment with different voltages and much higher power outputs. I build my packs from readily available LiPo packs, but they require careful monitoring during charging (using a special charger and power supply) and must also be safely protected against physical damage and excessive discharge current, as LiPo packs are renowned for turning themselves into very effective incendiary devices:o

Below is my latest compact, lightweight (1.4 kg/3.09 lbs) battery pack, it's a 29.6V 5Ah (33.6V fully charged) made from two 4s Turnigy LiPo hardcase packs, two Turnigy watt meters, a 40 amp fuse, and a plug in battery monitor unit, are all neatly contained within the small frame pannier bag which is Velcro strapped to the front of the top crossbar for quick and easy removal:


Size comparison:



The slightly larger bag on the right made an ideal home for a 51.8V 5Ah pack (58.8V fully charged) made from 2 x 3s and 2 x 4s Turnigy LiPo soft packs and weighs in at a mere 2.06 kg/4.54 lbs including the same watt meters and battery monitor unit, but this pack is fitted with twin 40 Amp fuses (wired in parallel) to safely deliver up to 80 amps of continuous current output. ;D

Voltage pros and cons:
A 36V 8Ah battery has more stored energy than a 24V 10Ah, which should provide a greater range if limited to produce the same power output, but it will probably be slightly heavier too.

A 36V pack will give you assistance up to a higher speed than a 24V pack, allowing you to maintain your speed for longer on hills and therefore climb them quicker.

Two identical 24V packs can be connected in parallel to double the range, or connected in series to make a 48V pack if higher speed is required. Although two 36V packs can also be connected in parallel, they cannot however be used in series, as the combined voltage would be far too high for the GM controller.

Alan
 
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 09:30:50 PM by Bikemad »

Offline Tbnrider

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Re: Motor assisted road bike
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2013, 12:44:05 AM »
Are the rectangular cells in a LiFePO4 36V battery liquid filled?  If so, does it matter how they are oriented?  (ie. cells vertical, battery mounted flat, etc?)

The other LiFe cells I have experience with for other purposes (A123) have liquid electrolyte, and are in liquid-tight cylindrical casings.