GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => Magic Pie & Smart Pie Discussions => Topic started by: DirtyGinge on November 15, 2010, 09:21:10 PM
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Hi All
Still "tweaking" my Magic Pie goodness, and this wekend fitted my cycle analyst to try and bring the bike into legal for when im riding through built up areas...Its a great bit of kit for sure...real info on how the power gets used/wasted
Anyway, based on gary from goldenmtor.ca's post, have wired up the throttle return to the throttle pad on the CA board and shorted out jumper R6.......
However the unit on default settings seems to be really slow to react to an overshoot of the limit )speed or current) and then takes ages to return ( as it seems to cut the power too much)
Can you guys give me a heads up on the settings required to make the cycle analyst work with the Magic Pie :) please please
Many thanks to Gary, and shout to jim @ alienbikes.co.uk, who both have proved that customer service is in no way dead ;D
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Hi All
Still "tweaking" my Magic Pie goodness, and this wekend fitted my cycle analyst to try and bring the bike into legal for when im riding through built up areas...Its a great bit of kit for sure...real info on how the power gets used/wasted
Anyway, based on gary from goldenmtor.ca's post, have wired up the throttle return to the throttle pad on the CA board and shorted out jumper R6.......
However the unit on default settings seems to be really slow to react to an overshoot of the limit )speed or current) and then takes ages to return ( as it seems to cut the power too much)
Can you guys give me a heads up on the settings required to make the cycle analyst work with the Magic Pie :) please please
Many thanks to Gary, and shout to jim @ alienbikes.co.uk, who both have proved that customer service is in no way dead ;D
Hi There..
If you are overshooting the speed limit setting by too much you need to adjust IntSGain
8.8 IntSGain
This value determines how rapidly the over-ride output will ramp down
when the speed of the vehicle exceeds the limit speed. Increasing this
value will speed up the response time for the speed control, but at the
risk of causing oscillations. Too low of a value will allow considerable
overshoot of the speed limit. The gain value can range from 0 to 999,
and the scaling is currently arbitrary.
Default is 200, I have mine set at 500
If it takes too long to recover try increasing ITermMin
8.12 ITermMin
This value imposes a lower bound on how low the throttle over-ride
can drift downwards when one of the limiting values is being
exceeded. By preventing the over-ride signal from going all the way to
0V, you can decrease the recovery time for the signal to go back
upwards. Range is from 0 to 4.99V, and must be less than ItermMax.
Default setting is .49v, which is so low your controller will think your throttle has failed. Try setting it about 1 volt below your itermMax setting and adjust it up or down as nessasary.
These settings are taken directly from the Cycle Analyst Manual available in the support section of my website or by clicking the following link
http://www.goldenmotor.ca/media/CycleAnalyst_Manual_Vers223.pdf
Gary
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Many thanks gary....once again
Are all the other settings that you have pretty default then ?
I must admit, the initial performance of the control was so badly out, I suspected that some changes would need a big difference.....hope I can get this working stably, it really is surprising to see how so much ampage gets wasted at the top end, but watching the speedo / ampage constantly is going to see me loving up the back of a truck soon ;)
regards
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Hi Gary and all
Tried the above settings, and all seems a little crazy...if I set the limit to 10MPHm the throttle will quite happily run at 30MPH with no limit whatsoever with minutes going by, or sometimes jsut limits crazily if I let go of the throttle and then rev again.....doesnt seem to be the electronics as
Voltage prior to diode .89
voltage after resistor and diode......69 ( varies with throttle...nothign abnormal)
sink is soldered to the th pad on the board, and with R6 shorted out...
settings as below
psgain 50
initsgain 500
initagain 500
initvgain 800
iterm max 3.79
iterm min 1.00
auxvolt off
auxthreshold 0.9
can anybody spot an obvious mistake, or shall I go back to basics ( recheck for bad solder joint R6.......p.s. how did you guys short it out ??)
Didnt want to appear that I hadnt read the manual, but nothing I did behaved at all, seems something is badly wrong...
many thanks
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Hi All
Just to add to the mystery.... powered off, restart, and I am limited to 2.8 MPH ( nice and steady 2.8 midn you ;) )
let go of throttle, pulse again and I go up to 25MPH.... let go, but throttle sticks at 25 MPH....let go again and sticks at 30 MPH
Just to clarify, if I remove the connection to the analyst, the throttle behaves 100%, never once behaved any way different
regards
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yup, now disconnected due to not wanting to go high speed through a wall >:(
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If you want speed control the magic controller can handle this in a heart beat.
I used the USB program cable GM canada sent me with my kit and I set forward speed scale accordingly.
From playing just a little with this setting I think it is RPM based to percentages. Percentages of your max speed will work just fine.
Say you go 25mph max, 10% forward speed scale would deliver a speed of 2.5MPH. If you wanted to limit your speed to 20 MPH then you would set forward speed scale to 80%.
I can make a very simple equasion for you to use on a calculator.
Speed desired = S D (sorry for the edit)
Max speed = M
Percentage of forward speed scale=%
The equasion
D/M*100=%
So in your case to set 20 MPH
20/25*100=80%
Set your forward speed scale to 80%.
Works very well and will still give you full power all the way up the the RPM limit setting.
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Just to clarify, if I remove the connection to the analyst, the throttle behaves 100%, never once behaved any way different
Sounds like the diode is connected the wrong way around! ;)
Alan
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Hi All
to put it bluntly, I need the wheel to be "legal" for a percentage of my journey, then unleash the beast in the wilderness where im unlikely to get pulled over....
Many thanks , I considered the USB route, and may still be an option, but means carrying a mini laptop around also..
If the diode was the wrong way round, surely I wouldnt be able to read any voltage on it, and the uncrontrollable "limiting" wouldnt exist..
please don't get me wrong, I appreciate all of your suggestions, will try reversing the diode, and ill order up a USB lead :)
regards
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If the diode was the wrong way round, surely I wouldnt be able to read any voltage on it, and the uncrontrollable "limiting" wouldnt exist..
The diode should be fitted as shown in the lower part of the following diagram, so that it will allow the throttle voltage to be lowered by the Cycle Analyst, but will not allow any voltage to flow from the Cycle Analyst to the controller to prevent the problem that you have already experienced:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/CAmoddedrestrictor.JPG)(http://www.lizarum.com/assignments/physical_computing/images/diodes/line.png)
With the diode fitted this way around, there is no way that the Cycle Analyst can cause the motor to run when the throttle is released. ;)
The switch shown in the lower diagram can be used to quickly disconnect the Cycle Analyst from the throttle, allowing either unrestricted maximum speed, or the Cycle Analyst pre-set maximum speed/current, at the flick of a switch. This allows a very quick and easy means of changing between Off Road Use and Road Legal Settings.
Alan
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The throttle overide works but it can take away from your max power when in limit mode. and to some degree is an honest way to limit both speed and power if you remove the switch.
The CA and GM software works via RPM limitation so if you hit the throttle to full your power will be always full until max speed is achieved.
Those who are looking for a truly legal Ebike would not be hunting around for a legal to illegal bypass switch. The actual law may be interpreted to read "must not be capable of exceeding speeds of "A"" Not "has a sneaky hidden switch to bypass speed limit laws" LOL jk :D. Either it is legal or not, you can not honestly have both.
At least with the software route you're truly legal until you figure out how to work the CA.
Or
You want an illegal bike that can appear and function as legal. In this case, one can ride around legal and use the throttle mod to fool any authority that may challenge the legality of an Ebike. Then one needs no law to restrict the bike, and just a switch and decide to obey the speed limit of your own accord, and pigs do fly too.. And as it should be, we are speed limited via a set of already established road rules, why must they complicate things so much more..
That said and blunt it is. We understand your honesty and look at me I am over the limit in every way. :D ;)
We call it the nanny police state and the bubble wrap generation. No freedom of choice, just regulations, upon regulations, and a band of merry thieves exploiting there ability to make regulation, code, and statute have high commercial value and a worthy profitable pursuit. Some people lives depends that we will break the law, so it makes good sense for some individuals to make life so claustrophobic with law to insure that we do break the law.
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And I just picked this up.
iterm max 3.79
iterm min 1.00
Interm min should be set 1v below interm max. The way Im seeing this is that the throttle signal recieves one volt in speed limit mode which 1 v = 0 speed in limit mode or only very slow.
So interm at 2.79 was the figure suggested as per Gary's post.
The higher you have on interm min the throttle will limit less. The lower you have interm min you will feel the limitation more and the dynamics of the limitation get to wide and the bike starts to stop start instead of limit gentle like.
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The CA and GM software works via RPM limitation so if you hit the throttle to full your power will be always full until max speed is achieved.
I think it should be possible to set the Cycle Analyst to control maximum current as well as maximum speed, in which case it can be set to comply with the legal requirements regarding maximum continuous power and maximum speed.
Should you decide to fit a switch to remove these power and speed restrictions (for off road use only), your bike would still be considered road legal providing the switch is not used while on public roads.
If a car has an electrically operated flap which flipped over the registration plate at the flick of a switch to keep it clean when using the vehicle off road, this could only be considered as illegal if it was activated to cover the number plate while the vehicle was being used on a public highway. They cannot prosecute simply for having such a device fitted, but they certainly would if they could prove that it was being used illegally.
Alan
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Agreed with the CA. I admit I havent don too much research on the CA as I sort of fine with my bike the way it is.
But I have read somewhere it maybe in an earlier version that you cant have current limitation and speed limitation t the same time, something about the CA being confused attempting to control both at the same time. I think LVC is different as it doesnt need to use the same throttle limitation code to get the job done.
I could be wrong. Either way with the GM software alone can handle an Ebike.
But I may disagree that any authority will be convinced by a switch that the rider states he doesnt use in built up areas, in most cases, if you want to argue the case, the court room is the place for one to prove the said rider of ebike exhibit "B" was not using the switch at the time the defendant was seen riding by official "C"..
If anything the switch is a device that makes the ebike outright illegal IMO and capable of doing more than the set limit. Too much grey area to trust this ideal if the authorities are chasing after high powered Ebikes.
LOL I can imagine
Rider says:
Here is my legal ebike officer.
Officer says
Erm erm what is this switch for. ?
Rider says:
Oh so that so I can be legal on the street and have full power off road.
Officer says
So what speed and how many watts is the bike is the bike capable of with this switch engaged. Oh about 2000 watts 43kph.
Officer thinks:
This is an illegal ebike capable of doing much more than the laws states should permitted on the road. When in doubt the fine they still must hand out.
If they pull you over to check your bike, the switch is not going to convince the officer that this makes the bike legal, he will argue the switch makes the bike illegal.
Capable of "A' speed can be interpreted as the absolute maximum a bike can do and any mooting over such interpretations will not be heard in a public street...
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Haa just about everyone that wants the illegal to legal switch states they will hide it somewhere no one can see.
Do the 317537 broken bike trick. ;D
If youre gonna lie to a coppers face go all the way.
You can use a deadmans switch and switch the thing off, when the officer checks your bike, you can say
"Ohhhh Noeeeees1!!! Holly crap, OMG, its broken down again. I knew it would happen I was just trying to get home. OMG my ebike is crap, I think I should just go back to stinking up the place with my car, Its lucky to reach 10kph and the pedalic is soooo sensitive I can move an inch without it. Know anyone who wants to buy a broken down Electric bike? ;D for $1200..
This is more fun to lie like this.
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In actual fact any on the spot fine in the UK without submission to contract under the road law authority is unconstitutional and violates the UK bill of rights,.
"That all grants and promises of fines and forfeitures of particular persons before conviction are illegal and void"
If you agree when you sign your name at the license registry to obey the road regulations then you are in contract and must submit to fines.
If you don't need a license, and you don't sign at the registry and not have to undertake a rules and vehicle operation exame then you have submitted to jack.
On the spot helmet fines and the like you can ask to have it seen in court otherwise you don't have to pay any fine.
One's defense in the court room against a helmet fine is very strong and correct in a just legal system.
The spot hustle for an $80 bike helmet fine by use employed armed men and aggressive force is dictionary definition armed robbery by the state to the people.
The principal of the UK bill of rights is being ignored.
"That all grants and promises of fines and forfeitures of particular persons before conviction are illegal and void"
This is to make sure that the states can not make fines for breathing or blinking your eyes too much and collecting from the poor and powerless with no overseers or peer review, so to avoid corruption of any local, state, or national authority.
Strangely UK constitution still effects us Aussies in some ways and I reckon I could pull this bill into an Aussie court of law and run it home. :D
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Hi All
Many thanks for the major feedback........appreciated all
To be honest, my main decision in buying a Magic Pie over a normal wheel is that I honestly think its better to run a motor @ 50% of its capacity, rather than rag an underpowered motor at 100% of its capability every day......
my experience is that the motor wont have a great lifespan, but since buying the Magic Pie, then reading the full regulations properly ( like pedelec etc), I find the regs totally unbelieveable...I mean what difference if I pedel or throttle, as long as the bike is speed limit 15 ??, just plain silly...however I do understand the need for the speed /power restrictions, as we were all kids once ( and some still are ;) ), a 15 year old kid on a 30mph bike on footpath is bound to end up badly.......I do like the idea of power speed restrictions, icy conditions, range extension ......and Ive come off my bike too many times at speed to find it fun anymore
Strangely my 1.5 tonne family wagon is far more dangerous, yet the law trusts me to drive that within regulations, but my bicycle must be force limited......
I don't want to be irresponsible or overly speedy, dangerous or any of that, but lets face it, im quite fat, old and 250W don't cut it cycling 40 miles per day in winter...
p.s. subtle hint....magnetic reed switch embedded in handlebar inside with magnet from hard drive on neck chain....magnet applied to handlebar in invisible spot X, power...magnet removed...no power.....no visible switch.....
Once again many thanks for all your help
regards
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The magnet idea is interesting you could use a hall sensor or your reed and a relay and make it the main switch. Nice idea for an invisible key switch and any magnet will fit the hole so if you lose your key one can be found easy enough.
Hmmm thanks for this idea. :D
And I just picked this up.
iterm max 3.79
iterm min 1.00
Interm min should be set 1v below interm max. The way Im seeing this is that the throttle signal recieves one volt in speed limit mode which 1 v = 0 speed in limit mode or only very slow.
So interm at 2.79 was the figure suggested as per Gary's post.
The higher you have on interm min the throttle will limit less. The lower you have interm min you will feel the limitation more and the dynamics of the limitation get to wide and the bike starts to stop start instead of limit gentle like.
You did get this post?
If you were to be testing your bike with no load like with the wheel off the ground maybe and set your speed down to slow on the CA and have this interm min setting at 1v
This would make the wheel take off at full speed then stop and take off again and make some confusion in how to use the throttle.
3.78v > 1v> 3.78v >1v
It would behave like some one was strobing the throttle with a switch at full twist. Crazy.
You set the interm min to 2.78v then lower it by .2v each test ride till your set speed in the CA is applied, is effective, and smooth.
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Oh and be sure to set your max speed at something sensible like 20mph as slow speed settings like 3mph with higher interm min 2.78v will have no effect other than limit the max speed of your bike regardless of you speed setting, and slow speed settings will have a jerk on and off unpredictable effect with low interm min settings like 1v.
I took another read of Gary's post and I think an interm min of approx 2.2 with MPH settings to higher than 20MPH.
Also 30mph is a little high so measure your wheel circumference and input it into your CA wheel circumference field.
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Hi All
Many thanks for all the kind help......
Being a forum newbie in the GM forum, its really helpful to get ideas, and not know ive done something really stupid,
inevitably it will be my fault, as with all newbie's, but I relaly appreciate all of your help....
So it appears that I have a diode that doesnt sink enough ma, and managed to wire the throttle prior to the resistor as opposed to after, hence plentiful supply of current to split both directions
Dont know why I was getting erratic behaviour though, as the diode was the correct way around......
However, some of your posts have really helped me in the correct setup of the unit, so your time has not been wasted and indeed I am really grateful, hope the reed switch idea helps as payback somewhat to some of you.....working fine for me, cuts the 5V feed to the throttle....sure I get a beep but thats all ( just make sure you include an override for your cruise, or maybe use a workaround with resistor for .8V to keep the throttle line open, otherwise the cruise control button will enter override mode, pressing will give you instant half power
Luv n stuff
Regards
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You can use a schottky diode instead, There is a 1 amp 40v part available and will only drop .3v over the diode instead of .8v like a normal diode. With less voltage drop over the diode it will have a higher voltage and this means the diode will allow more volts and ma through both the diode and resistor there.
I hope this helps.
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once again, all, many thanks ...
finalised the settings on the way home in the pouring rain ( extra half hour, tweak tweak swear at the rain, tweak) ( then got drunk so excuse the misspells) , might be handy for some of my EU companions
PSgain .18
initsgain 500
initagain 700 ( seems a little slower at lowering amps limit over speed milit, especially on pull offs..)
initvgain 800 ( as im not ready for hellrider impressions just yet)
itermmax 4.30 ) admitadly may be a bit high, but measured by multimeter as top throttle voltage)
itermmin 1.60 ( seems to be the nice 15MPH setting, with quick rebound, not dropping to far below, for slow recovery, hold cruise nicely)
maxthrottle 4.30 ( again, please measure yourselves, just my findings)
with these settings, I set speed limit at 15MPH, amps at 6 ( 48*6/.8) giving my calculate roughly 235W continuous output assuming 80% efficiency on the motor between input and output watts) ( christ, ive been studying the forums like hell, what a difference a week can make)
I must say, after spending the week in the pouring rain with 90 PSI road MTB tyres, the lower torque given by the 6 amp limit has given me a much "grippier" ride home( damn white lines and drain covers), and only made 5 minutes difference being "legal" in the rain over unrestricted... ( and its pissed rain here all week, round trip is 20 miles, 5 urban, 15 country )
In icy conditions, this unit will be an absolute godsend, and im sure will help the front forks, and also the top end wastage of top end amp load on hills, along with my gel saddle
now im still newbie, so if ive got anything wrong, please, I welcome input, as ( goes into drunk mode), learning is a journey, not a destination......
Thanks to you all, I have felt very welcome with your knowledge and enthusiasm
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Hi Paul
I missed a day here and checked back to see how you made out. Quite well from what I see. That's what I love about this forum.
I read your settings and they are very simular to mine. Except for ItermMin. I think I might have made a mistake with that comment. There us an actual formula for that I received in an email conversation with justin. He asked me what my full throttle and throttle at rest voltages were.
Hi Justin
Full Throttle 3.76 Volts
Throttle at rest 0.9 Volts
Gary
OK, then when you are going in the direct current control mode, you should set ITermMax and ITermMin to these values. When you are running the system in throttle over-ride mode, then you should use these values minus a 0.6V diode drop (so 0.3V and 3.2V).
Justin
I believe 'Direct current control' is the method when you solder a wire to the VI (using this method your regular cruise control will not work) and the throttle over-ride mode is the method when you solder a wire to the TH and use diode-ressitor method we are reffering to in this thread.
After finding this old email (April 2009) I checked my bike and my throttle maximum and minimum voltages are 4.12v and .9v. So subtracting .6v from each I set my settings to: ItermMax 3.5v and ItermMin to .3v. I have yet to test ride it to see how it works. I haven't ridden my bike in two days its getting cold and rainy lately, winter is coming. Such a low ItermMin does seem to contradict its description in the manual.
Gary
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Hi Gary
Many thanks
My initial testing found that the lower iterm min was dropping down below 15 on the speed, then taking time to bounce back up again, at 1.4 seemed ok, but 1.6 for me got me cruising nicely at 15 and very responsive, bouncing straight back if there was a drop in speed.....
Probable difference is that I am 100KG, and bike is 40, so probably needs more throttle to move me :), and thinking about it, makes sense that the voltages would be weight specific, im sure a 60-70 kg rider would require less manipulation of the throttle voltage ? (poor little hub motor, not a nice life)
Thanks for the help :), I love the forum, everyone is so helpful
Regards
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But I have read somewhere it maybe in an earlier version that you cant have current limitation and speed limitation t the same time, something about the CA being confused attempting to control both at the same time. I think LVC is different as it doesnt need to use the same throttle limitation code to get the job done.
Actually the CA does a nice job of limiting the speed, amps, and voltage all at the same time. The speed limiter is great and works very well. I like the amps limit as I can leave the Pie at default settings. The low voltage limit is great as well because you can set it and not worry about going to low on voltage. The bike just stops performing as well as it was and you know when its time to go home!
Gary