GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => General Discussions => Topic started by: Thaialien on May 03, 2010, 10:14:07 AM
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WHO CAN TELL ME ?
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What is your voltage battery pack.
If its 72v there is definitely something fishy. 8)
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I don't understand your maths. It is not a correct way to measure.
Done by GPS and back Calculation GPS speed divided by 60 dived by dia. divided by 3.142 gives Rpm OK . (Data Sheets attached email)
say 38kph/60=.663
.633/525=0.0012057142857142857142857142857143
0.0012057142857142857142857142857143/3.1428=3.8364333896979945089910725649557e-4 RPM
That is very slow if this is correct no wonder you sent so many emails. :o
This picture is for golf cart trike and is 48v it looks like the same as hbs-48v performance to me.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2125.0;attach=2957;image)
What do you use to measure amps?
What do use to test RPM?
Try this.
48v*17.8 amps= 854.4 watts +10 -10 % tolerance. 5% for wheel and 5% for test meter. To be fair.
Say your measure is 8% incorrect. 17.8/100%=0.17*x8%=1.424amps possible error.
17.8amps+1.424amps=19.224
Unless you buy professional test equipment you calculation maybe wrong.
48v*19.224amps=922.752 watts.
But battery is 52v when start so it can = 999.648. Very close to 1000W.
7/22= 3.1428571428571428571428571428571=PI
=3.1428
Diameter*3.143= circumference
525 is 20.6"?
525*3.1428 =1670mm
1.67 meters.
Your speed (what ever that is)*1000=meters per hour
Let us say 38kph*1000 = 38000 meters per hour
38000/60 minutes = 633.3 meters per minute.
633.3/1.67= 379.rpm
If you look at the chart I marked onto it the heaviest load.
I marked In purple what would be normal road performance with about 10 amps and maybe less with 20" wheel
See unless you are stopping the wheel when you ride on a big hill you can not use 1000 watts. Only 500 to 750 watts depending, how big you are, and how hard your tires are, depending on the road quality, and depending how much wind there is and how aerodynamic your bike and tire is.
Your brakes need to be very good adjusted and you tires need to be pumped with lots of pressure. This helps much.
Unless you have no resistance on the wheel you can not have 470 rpm.
470 rpm*1.67= 47kph but that is speed very hard to reach with a smaller wheel.
26" wheel on road.
350rpm*2.075.5= 43.575 kph and this is 1000 watts wheel in the chart.
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GM controllers have shunt limit inside them you may have to by pass this with another "10 amp rated" shunt bar to give more amps.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2125.0;attach=2961;image)
You do this at your own risk and more amps will melt motor with very heavy loads.
I have one melted motor.
Before
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/soulelectronique/compare-1.jpg?t=1280810709)
after
:'(
You should not get too much speed from this wheel with 250kg on the bike. You risk overheating the motor. This is a bicycle motor for light weights and has no gears. GM HBS is for a bicycle and one person so it will never perform as it will for 250kg with similar weight at 20+ amps.
You need 2000 watts IMO for two people. Maybe use two hubs in dual is better.
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This is the curves you been looking for.
Before we continue tell me what you think of these files.
HBS48 Curves (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2125.0;attach=2975)<< Click to view.
HBS48 Data (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2125.0;attach=2976)<< Click to view.
Very nice rides you have there.
They do not look like the HBS motors I have.
Does your GM motor look like this?
(http://www.goldenmotor.com/hubmotors/hubmotor-imgs/f-e.gif)
.
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I look at that web site I would say interesting Ideas hey.
Pedillac Cab Company http://www.pedillac.com/Home_Page.php (http://www.pedillac.com/Home_Page.php)
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=200848#p200848 (http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=200848#p200848)
Quoted from endless sphere by 317537 » Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:14 am in the thread If you had a million dollars to invest in e-bikes
If I had a million dollars to invest in ebikes I would buy myself a fleet of runners and setup by the sea and rent them out to tourists. I would do tours in trikes like a rickshaw but electrified. I would sub contract to do tours all over by supplying the ride of a life time to and from where ever that is practical.
Looks like I won the competition. Yay ::) :'( Shame I didnt win anything. LOL. One mans Ideas is anothers success. It's a shame my peers in my local area see me amounting to nothing good.
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I can cart more weight than two people on a 250 watt motor, but the motor is geared for torque and speed is slower and the wheel is 20".
With a 26" wheel on of my 250 watt, one motor has burnt out, with only one person, and it didn't happen over night, it took 3 weeks of use before it was dysfunctional.
Just because the hub can pull two people doesnt mean it should be done, and because it has been done successfully doesnt mean it's going to be successfull every time on every brand motor.
Those trikes have different wheels than I have seen, they maybe geared or even over rated, They maybe drawing 30 amps on hill, no real data has been offered to make any proper comparison, ALAS! I have no idea. You ask for so much explanation yet offer little details. The kit is supposed to be 1000watts.
I just said to consider tolerances. And offered a possible solution by adding another shunt in your controller.
What motor were the trikes using? are these motors geared? Do the riders need to climb steep grades, is the transport suitable for steep grades?
There are many hills any 500 watt wheel will fail to climb without two people.
I cant answer most of what you ask here as I don't have much data except for your GPS RPM calculations, turned into web link to a tacho meter, 250kg, 48v, 20" wheel, 310 RPM and 17.5 amps and 32kph. Enough detail here for the GM wheel. The controller is obviously having a shunt in it. But wrong to compare with out all the same details or same size gearless BLDC motor.
I get 840 watts you just need more amps.
I have offered a suggestion that you try improve the controller current rating by adding a 10 amp shunt, but I warn you that gearless and 250kg weights do not always do well together, the 20" wheel should give you much torque at the expense of some speed, but your RMP should be higher at 48v. That is normal for a normal bike that weighs 35kg, not 100kgs. Almost tripled the load those trikes have made.
The wind resistances on a trike like that is a lot and effects the gearless heavily. Also depends where you ride,
I don't understand
Are expecting a 35kg bike with one rider to perform the same as 100kg wind catching trike with two riders? These are gealess hubs made to power a single bike and rider in mind, the wind resistances are accounted for to give the single rider optimum performance not a big trike, why you push something that is designed for this purpose more than 3 times what it is intended for and expect the same speed puzzles me.
Maybe a geared motor is better for this job.
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I think it is a good idea
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Oh its 25 amps now, my bad My previous calculations was based on motor input not based on efficiency.
Still at 85% efficiency at 48v @ 25 amps this equates to 1020 watts true output.
GM can make your controller do 50 amps at 48v making it 2400 watts 2040 watts at 85% efficiency but how many people would want warrnty after a week. All of them. Creating a PR nightmare of a 100% product failure rate is not what GM wants. So maybe they have limited the controller to output 1000 watts for customers protections.
There is reasonable reasons why GM shunt inside the controller and that is to protect newbies from using the software to overload the motor and controller on the first day of use.
This is a golden motor red light and it says STOP!!!!. Protecting the customer early from making software mistake with software is a good thing. And I would guess if you keep jamming your motor to a complete stop like this failure is likely, the shunt is made for people that may then be asking so many times why my motor smells like plastic on fire today and the hall sensors have failed from heat.
As I have said, if you want to take the risk then bypass the controller shunt and you can go forth with no more warranty and deem yourself the person responsible to any failure or succeed in making a good trike. If you know your ebike tech then you may well succeed at this modification with no recourse.
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The motor will do exactly what they say. You must understand it is a test of the motor - Not the controller.
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PDF is of motor test not 1000 watt kit controller test.
Try different controller than GM 1000 watt kit controller to learn the real truth of motor performance..
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Here are the GM fets in the controller.
http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/stmicroelectronics/9231.pdf (http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/stmicroelectronics/9231.pdf)
It say one fet can do 120 amps.
Should we send all the fets back to ST microelectronics because the Magic controller has a shunt to protect against derating factor.. Maybe send 100 emails.
GM says 50 amps. but STM says 120 amps, not fair. This PDF tests STM does, is it for the GM controller? IT MUST BE, it says 120 amps on this PDF.
Bad GM put 50 amps on controller when STM say 120 amps. They must be the same PDF to be fair. NoT!
Ohh and GM have 20 amps on controller shunt not 50 amps, very bad GM. Again some very sad customers that do not know how to multipy volts and amps to make watts wreck all their motors, not just one, but all motors, and GM get 9000 emails this year looking for warranties on motors.
Massive headache for GM and customers with usb program cables that still work on a motor worth going into a garbage bin.
Look time to settle down and relax.
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I’ve followed this thread and don’t understand why there has to be such bad feelings. I’d really tried to understand what thaialien been arguing about and I guess Leslie has as well. I think this forum is a great place for us electric bicycle nerds to help each other and that most of us can behave. If I had it my way I would give thaialien a chance to say “I’m sorry, promise to behave”, otherwise I suggest he closes his account and directs the shouting at himself. Keep up the good work Leslie.
Yours sincerely
Peter
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Fact is all GM magic controller can do 24v to 48v LVC.
So 24v should do 50 amps and 48v should do 25 amps. But explain this to 1000's of 16 year old Jonny's looking for a new 48v Ebike this Christmas who want 48v 1000 watt motor running at 50 amps = Controller death.
Maybe us folk who can do the modifications properly don't mind this, but young johnny still has a working bike.
I am happy and Johnny is happy, even if he doesn't understand his new settings at 50 amps is not doing anything. The internal shunt saved his newbie arse and saved GM an email.
And I has 48 volts @ 25 amps because I know what I am doing. I tell them the right settings but most some still do not understand and overload and oveheat. Some are good guys take it on the chin and learn from mistakes and, learn, learn, learn some more. and some are whiney lil babies and learn nothing.
I for one am glad GM put the shunt in there cause things here would be way worse.
Johnny gets a CA and sees I am not getting 50 amps, why? He come to GM forums and ask why. He is told he is lucky his controller and motor still works as this setting 50 amps at 48v is way too high.
GM sells to many customers with no idea what to do with volts, amps and watts. I still like the program cable and I can still have 25 amps if I want.
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PDF is of motor test not 1000 watt kit controller test.
Try different controller than GM 1000 watt kit controller to learn the real truth of motor performance..
Well why did you not say before that Magic cotrollers are NO Good !
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I’ve followed this thread and don’t understand why there has to be such bad feelings. I’d really tried to understand what thaialien been arguing about and I guess Leslie has as well. I think this forum is a great place for us electric bicycle nerds to help each other and that most of us can behave. If I had it my way I would give thaialien a chance to say “I’m sorry, promise to behave”, otherwise I suggest he closes his account and directs the shouting at himself. Keep up the good work Leslie.
Yours sincerely
Peter
Thanks peter.
I will say Im sorry for my part in this.
Sorry for my trolling thaialien :-\
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PDF is of motor test not 1000 watt kit controller test.
Try different controller than GM 1000 watt kit controller to learn the real truth of motor performance.. Otherwise stop wasting precious bandwdith with many emails and confusing posts.
And stop wasting my time please.
Well why did you not say before that Magic cotrollers are NO Good !
You didnt ask me if GM controllers are no good you asked how to make your GM motor do what the PDF does. I answered by giving you the PDF that no one could supply.. Then you asked why you were not getting the PDF figures you saw. I explained it was for the motor not the controller.
Then you asked me how to make it work like this and I told you to get a 10 amp rated shunt and warned you for you this may be unhealthy for motor and controller.
I said the PDF has nothing to do with the controller it is for the motor.
Now you say the GM controllers are bad, for $68US the A123 systems killacycle controller is fine IMO?
(http://acuteaero.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/DSCN3236.JPG) :o
I told you that the GM gearless motor is designed for single rider. And now. Yes controller is not to be for public transport vehicles.
The controllers are very minimal in design and very cheap to buy. The GM controllers are good for the 1000 watt kit for general consumer use, not for a professional bike builders marketing taxi bicycles.
For professional use you may need to spend more than $68US. ;)
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I have 100 different rated shunts sitting in my garage in a big pile of old circuits Ive collected.
Just look in the TV store bins. Yes dumpster diving.
Another way is ohms law.
w/I2=R
Avoid volts in the equation.
Your desired Watts divided by Your required current squared = the resistance you need.
Say you want 1300 watts and you want 25 amps.
1300 watts/ 252
252=625
1300/625= 2.08 ohms.
Some solid iron wire has 500 times the resistance of copper. Look around...
you need 10AWG iron wire at 2.08ohms
Set you constant current in your software at 25 amps and max at 30.
And you should be right...
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W = I² × R
This says the heat produced increases with the "square" of the current. So doubling the current increases the heat power dissipated by 2² = 2 × 2 = 4 times. So small changes in current produce big changed in heating. Dealing with this heating gets complicated fast. In practice current shunts are often rated to be used continuously at only 66% of their "rated current". So if you need a continuous 80 Amp measurement you can't do it wth a typical 100 Amp ( thus 66 A continuous) rated current shunt. Alternately, a shunt may have a graph that shows how you derate its continuous current as a function of the surrounding air temperature. You might find you can use it at full current if it's 0 °C around the shunt, but at only 40% of full rating with a 90 °C ambient temperature.
66% says the site I read, so we try again.
66
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Lets push it.
You want 1400 watts max.
66% will be continuous watts. Maybe? Ok!
66% of 1400 watts =
1400W/100%=14W, 14W*66%=942 watts cont.
Sounds good to me. Plus you wont be using this on flats. So motor will have time to cool.
The voltage is is 48v. So we need our current max.
W/V=I
1400/48v=29 amps max. Nasty!
W = I² × R
292=841
1400/841=1.66 ohms
942/48v=19.65A cont
20 amps cont
30 amps Max
1.66 ohm shunt
Finding an inch of 10awg wire that equals 1.66 ohm may be difficult..
Lets look. GoOglE
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Lets push it.
You want 1400 watts max.
66% will be continuous watts. Maybe? Ok!
66% of 1400 watts =
1400W/100%=14W, 14W*66%=942 watts cont.
Sounds good to me. Plus you wont be using this on flats. So motor will have time to cool.
The voltage is is 48v. So we need our current max.
W/V=I
1400/48v=29 amps max. Nasty!
W = I² × R
292=841
1400/841=1.66 ohms
942/48v=19.65A cont
20 amps cont
30 amps Max
1.66 ohm shunt
Finding an inch of 10awg wire that equals 1.66 ohm may be difficult..
Lets look. GoOglE
Finding that in Thailand !!! I will be dead before I find it ! and my Thai ability is spoken only and about 40% (any one got any Asprins !)
here's a nice song and good example of Thai language
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov1Ui-qU9vM&feature=related
Thats why I ordered 50amp controller .....and not the old 30 amp one!
But then to get told have to rebuild it and no warranty !! ???
pehaps you are happy the bank taking 500$ out of your bank account and only give you
250$
Well whats to expect ! Its a joint American venture Golden motor Goes to say somethings about Americans ( Weapons of mass detruction IRAC ,,,,, who was that President who said that he never had sexual encounter with Monica ?.....)
By the way on some website i've seen it but can not find it now shows how to modify Magic controller PERHAPS SOMEONE COULD LET ME KNOW THANK YOU!
By the way Luyuan China they have policy keep customers happy !!! they are the biggest e-bike company there.. they sell 15,000,000 ebikes a year !
Leslie, I think you've just been insulted & called an American.
It is possible that the rest of the world doesn't get the joke about your numbers turning into letters when viewed upside-down. Maybe that's because they're closer to you in Thailand and you only look like you're standing sideways from there. ;)
Because you post so much, is it possible that some people think you represent GM?
Why did you buy your Magic Pie wheels from Gary in Canada? Are you a dealer?
Are you really from the U.S. ???
Or are you from down-under? Oops, some may not know where that is either.
C'mon Mate! Fess up. Do you really like Vegemite?
Idle minds want to know...
-Dave
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Just done another 25 miles with the nodded GM 15amp controller which now chucks out 70 amp peak but mainly 35 amps up hills. Still going strong but am waiting for it to fail. Bike is a little faster as I had the programmer set to 24 volts.
I think you can only change one parameter at a time with the software, then save....disconnect....get config....change another parameter etc....
Controller's heat sink is in the wind flow of the open air and just doesn't get warm. A bit of heat paste on the fet's is probably helping as well. Will still get the controller that Scorpion has recommended though.
Scorpion, is the Magic Pie any faster with the new controller?
Wow this member got 70 amps out of his GM controller. But GM web site says 50 amps, Maybe we send 100 emails and give 1000 headaches to gM about this one. I don't think hes an electric engineer either.
Im sure thaialien could figure out how to make his controller stronger him being an electrical engineer.. Have 10 by 10 amp rated controller shunts in a little jar here.
I can do it properly to any external controller in 30 mins and I'm no professor.
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Phom mai co jai krrup ! phom kit khun gin ya baa krrup !
Phom mai sur (Magic Pie) phom sur (Magic controller ) mai me mueng kang ! phom kit khum mai me venta khun mai sarp put alai krrup ! khun mai me chalat krrup !
[/quote]
Unable to detect language used.
If I have said anything that you wish clarified, please just say so.
If you are only a troll, then good luck with that.
-Dave
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hmm looks a Vietnamese a bit actually
If you are only a troll, then good luck with that.
-Dave
lol and apart from that I have no clue whats going on here... :S ?
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Maybe he was going on about me missing adding up the resistance of the entire circuit, batteries BMS cables and motor resistances I tire of just listing them.
Stuff that! The guys an electric engineer, I should need to work all that out for him?
Makes me work, with no fun.
So then Rather than poke fun Thaialien, show me your stuff as I have my balls in a knot getting any sense out of your posts to make anything real, So we just make sh!t up, if you cant give us some real tech data you may learn how to get it along the way..
Internal resistance of your pack?
The resistance of your motor windings?
The resistance of your fets?
The resistance of your PCB tracks.
The resistance of your cables and connections?
The resistance of your current shunt in use.
Start by the pack you use? Maybe I spend three day searching for the specs on this,
Give me some current tests on you BMS through a good temp co-efficient resistor, now that would make things a lot easier. We could maybe find out the resistance of your whole pack minus the motor then we just use the data 52v/17 amps to get 3 ohms and subtract the battery bms resistance. Take a poke at the motor resistance and subtract it, subtract your on-fet resistances, subtract your test resistor, and your shunt value should be remaining.
I cant afford a milliohm meter, maybe the electric engineer thiaalien has a milliohm meter and can help us instead of stinking up the board, give us some good resistance values on the GM motors.
Run a battery cell through your motor phase wires two on the negative and one phase on the positive in wye, you must know the internal resistance of the battery cell to be accurate and get the current draw from this circuit.
say the cell is 3.3v and you draw 5 amps through the phase wires. 3.3v/5A=.66 ohms. an electrical engineer could figure out this one. Even I can and I am a newbie..
You getting 17 amps at 52v?
3 ohms. Tooooo much resistance.
We said the perfect system would need 1.66 ohms to make 1400 watts @ 48v.
1.34 ohms to high. You want more amps?
Damn this two page effort of getting the details to do a proper calculation. LOL I had to get most of the data myself to get it this far. The PDF on his motor was not on the GM site, I spent ages tracking it down and found it buried on ES.
I thought an electronics laboratory scientist would of been able to discuss the finer points of my posts without going postal. At least Thaialian may of put some pencil to pad and do some of the work. Even a picture of the dear bike and his work on it would give this member some personality.
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The language appears to be Thai.
That's as far as I can get.
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I could be wrong, but I think the whole
shunt wire discussion revolves around the
old style mechanical speed controller.
The magic controller (your picture) uses an
integrated circuit to limit the current.
I am not sure if it allows you to reconfigure
the limits.
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E-lmer lol you seem to be catching up on some posts today!
Yes, the magic controller uses a shunt, you can find it by tracing the GND power line on the PCB, I say to trace it as I have seen it positioned on both top and bottom of the boards.
It's general location is the bottom left side looking from the top of the PCB.
Who42 has gained more power by adding another poly cap next to where the shunt is. This is not confirmed, but I assume this is the cap the microcontroller would be reading its current state of charge during PWM phasing so there is still risk of overheat/failure.
From what I've found on this forum, and without risking my own equipment I see that the controllers will handle around 25A continous maximum. If you add solder to your power PCB traces, and perhaps add solder to the shunt until you reach around 25A continous maximum then leave it.
Any more and it won't last very long.... But will be great while it does! LOL
:D
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Hey ThaiAlien, geez I didn't think you were still around!! I think E-lmer woke you up with this old post haha
wish I could find full fault diagostic (what does 5 beeps mean ? when you power up ?
That's the part that I gathered you wanted an answer to from your post, sorry but I couldn't understand much of it ! :) Or were you just posting about the user guide??
5 beeps means Mosfet failure, the controller has been overvolted/overheated and you need to replace 1 or some of the mosfets on the controller.
Anyways good luck
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Thanks again !