GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => General Discussions => Topic started by: solardan on August 22, 2009, 04:54:32 PM
-
I just purchased a 72vdc HPM5000B to be used on an experimental wind turbine of my own design.
I would like to know what your large wire, color codes are.
They are Green, Yellow and Blue.
I also assume since I am using this motor as a power generator to charge my battery bank, I will not need the small wire connector for anything.
I need to know which wire is positive, negative and ground. I assume Green is ground!
Please Help.
Thank you,
Dan
-
Solardan,
Not sure if you realize that this is a brushless 3-phase motor? The wires are for each of the motor phases, no positive, negative or ground here. You need a 3 phase brushless motor contoller with regeneration feature to convert the motor current into a DC voltage.
I believe it does not matter which order you connect the 3 wires for generation. However if the output from the controller has wrong polarity, just swap any two of the wires.
The small wires are for the hall-sensors, I guess they are not needed when the motor is used only for generation.
Good luck on this rather unusal use of the GM motor
Helge
-
No I did not realize that when I purchased it. Bummer!!!! I thought it was a 2-pole single phaes unit. When I emailed Golden Motor and asked them if it would work as a wind generator, they said yes WITHOUT telling me I needed anything else.
Where to I get a 3 phase brushless motor contoller with regeneration feature?
Can I use the Hall Sensor to monitor RPM's in any way?
Thank you,
Dan
-
Golden motors has a couple of controllers. The BAC-281 Cruise controller can handle up to 60 Volts for driving the motor and it is rated at 50 Amps. Not sure how it will work in regen mode with your 5000W motor though.
It should be possible to measure rpms by using the hall sensors, but I do not know enough to tell you how :)
Hopefully others with more knowledge will chime in to sort this out for you.
Helge
-
I would like to know what your large wire, color codes are.
They are Green, Yellow and Blue.
Dan,
Wiring details for this motor can be found here: HPM5000B (http://goldenmotor.com/hubmotors/hubmotor-imgs/HPM5000B%20Drawing.pdf)
The Green, Yellow and Blue thick wires are the three phase main power wires.
If you're using it as a wind generator you will require six heavy duty diodes (or a suitable rectifier unit (http://cgi.ebay.com/75-AMP-THREE-3-PHASE-AC-to-DC-rectifier-for-WIND_W0QQitemZ180395755162QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2a006cc69a&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ht_2253wt_1165)) to rectify the AC voltage produced:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/HPM5000BGenerator-1.JPG)
You will probably require some form of voltage regulator (http://cgi.ebay.com/440-AMP-10-000-WATT-Solar-Wind-Regulator-Controller-XL_W0QQitemZ180398739875QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2a009a51a3&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262#ht_9441wt_1165) to prevent any overcharging of your storage batteries, but you will have to do a bit of research on that.
Alan
-
Thank you!
It looks like I have some more work to do and more parts to buy. If anyone else can be more specific with part numbers and brand names, I am all ears.
I appreciate everyone's efforts.
Dan
-
Thank you!
It looks like I have some more work to do and more parts to buy. If anyone else can be more specific with part numbers and brand names, I am all ears.
I appreciate everyone's efforts.
Dan
Dan
I found this: a suitable rectifier unit on eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com/75-AMP-THREE-3-PHASE-AC-to-DC-rectifier-for-WIND_W0QQitemZ180395755162QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2a006cc69a&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ht_2253wt_1165).
And some useful info here (http://www.reuk.co.uk/Three-Phase-Bridge-Rectifier.htm).
Alan
P.S. Surely your username should be Windydan? :D
-
Thanks for the info Alan!
I just emailed the guy on Ebay.
My main passion is solar and is why my name is solardan, but during my project here at my house playing around, I decided to try some wind power since I live on a hill.
I am experimenting with geothermal heat pump technology and solar.
Check out my web site at www.DansHomeEnergyProject.com
When I get my new wind turbine up and running, I will showcase it too.
Dan
-
Dear Dan,
We also supply solar energy boards, multi/mono-crystalline. We can make up to 500MW of solar panels, it's a very huge business indeed. If you are interested please contact me. yaoyuan@goldenmotor.com
-
Right now I would appreciate knowing what your wire colors mean.
I assume I bought a 72 vdc 5000 watt motor.
A wiring diagram in USA English would be nice too.
What are the following wire colors?
Green?
Blue?
Yellow?
Also, how can I hook up the hall effect wires to read RPM's?
Thanks,
Dan
-
Right now I would appreciate knowing what your wire colors mean.
I assume I bought a 72 vdc 5000 watt motor.
A wiring diagram in USA English would be nice too.
What are the following wire colors?
Green?
Blue?
Yellow?
Also, how can I hook up the hall effect wires to read RPM's?
Thanks,
Dan
The three thick wires (which are shown on the diagram as Green, Yellow and Blue) go to the motor windings as per my diagram:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/HPM5000BGenerator-1.JPG)
For simplicity I've shown the windings as a star configuration, but the motors may be wired in a delta configuration for all I know.
Either way it will have three heavy duty cables coming from the motor which will need to connect to a rectifier of some sort.
It doesn't matter which colours go to which connection so long as all three go to separate connections on the AC input side of the rectifier.
You should also have five smaller wires:
Small Red would normally have a 5V supply to feed the three hall sensors.
Small Black is the common ground (0V) for the three hall sensors.
Small Green, Yellow and Blue are the signal outputs for each of the three hall sensors.
I don't know how you can use the hall sensors to give an RPM output.
Hope this helps.
Alan
-
Alan,
First of all, THANK YOU for this info.
The part that is disturbing is the fact I bought this motor being told it was a 72vdc and is why I am having difficulty.
The only thing I have not done yet spin the darn thing and take a reading.
I will not be able to do so for a couple of days due to my work but will try on Thursday.
Sincerely,
Dan
-
I just hooked up a drill motor to the HPM5000B and spun it.
I hooked up two seperate meters with one on AC and the other on DC.
It developed 12 VAC which tells me Golden Motor sold me a bill of goods because I specifically asked for a 72vdc motor.
I will purchase the rest of the items needed to make this work.
Thanks to EVERYONE except Golden Motor.
Dan
-
I just hooked up a drill motor to the HPM5000B and spun it.
I hooked up two seperate meters with one on AC and the other on DC.
It developed 12 VAC.
Dan,
Don't forget this is probably a 4,000 rpm motor that you are using as a generator, it will obviously need to be geared up sufficiently to allow it to spin fast enough to generate power at the voltage you require.
Electric motors have an almost linear relationship between voltage applied and rpm output, so presumably, the same would be true in reverse when being used as a generator.
(rpm applied and voltage output).
I reckon if you're getting 12 Volts (with no load) driving it with a drill, it should generate 72 Volts if you spin it 6 times faster than the drill.
If you knew how fast the drill was spinning, it would be easy to calculate how fast the motor needs to spin before it starts to produce power (current flow) at 72V.
Please let us know how you get on with this rather interesting project.
Alan
-
I will definitely keep in touch.
Y'all have been great.
Dan
-
Solardan, if you look at practically every commercial or home built wind gen, you'll find they use brushless motors like the HPM-5000 BUT SMALLER running to a rectifier that turns the three phase AC into a DC current and voltage. These motors, as do PMDC motors, generate voltage in direct relationship to rpm. You would need to run the HPM-5000 at over 4,000 rpm to get 72V as they can only give the rated Volts/Krpm. I doubt that as a wind gen you will be able to drive it above 3,000rpm (even with gearing) which will give about 48V and up to 100 amp!!!
That is still a hell of a lot of power - remember 5KW is about 7HP - THAT WILL NEED A HUGE PROPELLER and a strong thrust bearing/gearbox to generate that amount of power. Also what power system can be charged at the huge current possible - you must have a huge storage bank. Compare that to a six to eight foot blade generally creating 300-1,000 Watts in moderate winds at 12V or 24V, through a properly built voltage controller (much more complex than the bridge rectifier and voltage regulator solutions proposed). Wind gens also need controllers that cut power generation at high winds to prevent damage to battery banks, melted cables due to excessive current, and high speed destroying wind blades.
I've just ordered two of these motors myself to use in yacht and other EV power projects as they hopefully will be an excellent power motor. But to use it as a power motor it requires a Brushless motor controller (that is more expensive than the motor to twice the price and is rated at up to 72V and 200Amp). These can be used for generation under motor regenarative braking.
The motor on Golden's website is clearly listed as 'Brushless' on home page and BLDC in menu and Model: HPM5000B -- High Power BLDC Motor, Voltage:24V/36V/48V/72V, Rated Power:2000W-7000W in description (BLDC means Brush Less Direct Current - standard motor terminology) so you certainly got what you asked for. You'll need to do your research a bit more first next time.
-
SolarDan
Regarding the RPM, there are circuits that can utilise the Hall Sensor output from the five small wires. Also the waves generated in one phase can be counted by a branch off one of thee three large cables. However, you'll find many cheap cycle computer can give RPM as a function from a magnet mounted on your prop/motor shaft. That would by far be easiest and cheapest solution.
Lots of luck putting it together. Cheers. :)
-
Alan,
I was just able to get someone to help me spin my motor.
The best I could read was this,
19.98 VAC at 2000 RPM
Thanks,
Dan
-
19.98 VAC at 2000 RPM
Dan,
If those figures are correct, your wind turbine would have to be geared up very high to spin the motor in excess of 7,200rpm in order to generate 72V.
Wind turbines don't like too much speed! (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cdd_1203701257)
I think this motor is probably not the best choice for a wind turbine project.
Alan
-
Alan,
I think I bit off more than I can chew. I thought bigger was better but in this case bigger is a killer to my idea. (I think)
Thank you very much for your assistance during all this.
Maybe this motor of mine will be on Ebay soon so I can buy a different one.
In your opinion, what do you think I should purchase to play with regarding a small residential wind turbine?
Any ideas on size?
Dan
-
Alan
In your opinion, what do you think I should purchase to play with regarding a small residential wind turbine?
Any ideas on size?
Dan,
As I've had virtually no involvement with wind turbines myself, I don't think I'm the person that you should be asking.
I recommend you do a lot more research on the internet and join a forum such as this one at Gotwind.com (http://gotwind.forumco.com/forum~FORUM_ID~2.asp), where you will hopefully find the answers and advice that you require.
Good luck with your wind turbine project.
Alan
P.S. How do you fancy another project? An electric bike powered by the HPM500B motor, which you could recharge using your wind generator! ::)
-
If the HPM5000B could be connected in a delta configuration instead of the "y" configuration a bit more voltage could be had at the same RPM I believe.
Seems like you should be able to get 72V at 2100RPM as it is though. My minimotor will do regen charging into the 36V battery pack at as little as 8MPH, that is 38% of the max no load motor speed.
-
If the HPM5000B could be connected in a delta configuration instead of the "y" configuration a bit more voltage could be had at the same RPM I believe.
Seems like you should be able to get 72V at 2100RPM as it is though. My minimotor will do regen charging into the 36V battery pack at as little as 8MPH, that is 38% of the max no load motor speed.
Floatbike,
These motors might be wired in a delta configuration already, I simply modified an existing circuit diagram in order to show the wiring of the rectifying diodes.
But I did also mention:
For simplicity I've shown the windings as a star configuration, but the motors may be wired in a delta configuration for all I know.
I too am surprised by the low voltage output and would have expected it to be higher than 20V@2000rpm.
I would like to see the results with a rectifier fitted and some sort of loading across the output.
Alan
-
Your HPM5000B is brushless motor.It needs a HPC100B brushless controller to drive.
-
Your HPM5000B is brushless motor.It needs a HPC100B brushless controller to drive.
TOM,
A controller is obviously required to drive the motor, but why is it required when the motor is already being driven by a wind turbine and is only used for generating electricity?
Alan
-
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/HPM5000BGenerator-1.JPG)
Alan,
Is it possible to use this for some crude regenerative braking that is missing on HPC100B ?
Dajs
-
The diodes work to change the AC into DC.
If its a 72v motor and you only require 12v output the motor may not need to spin up to 4000 rpm.
A bit of guess work here. 1000 watts will charge a 100ah battery. You could opt for a 6v SLA and get about 400-500 watts from generator and charge a 40~50ah battery at around 1000+ rpm might give you enough over voltage to pound out some current out of the windings to charge a 6v 50ah battery efficiently.
Remember the less internal resistance off the battery the bigger your propeller has to be. So this could work very well as a small .5kw charger with no gears.
-
Your HPM5000B is brushless motor.It needs a HPC100B brushless controller to drive.
TOM,
A controller is obviously required to drive the motor, but why is it required when the motor is already being driven by a wind turbine and is only used for generating electricity?
Alan
The type of motor and application should require a brake. Using the regen from an Ebike controller wouldn't be good enough though. Many controllers can control the amount of regen that is produced which is handy to know.
Another method of braking or shunt is to use a stove element and clamp as a variable load resistor on the AC side of those diodes. This turns your wind turbine from battery charger to an egg fryer. 12v elements can be sought but the current rating maybe a bit low so three or four 10 amp elements may serve as a brake.
If we could only store huge amounts of excess electricity from wind generators reliably and quickly it would be a much better world.
-
Alan,
Is it possible to use this for some crude regenerative braking that is missing on HPC100B ?
Dajs
It's possible to run the 3Phase motor with a simple controller similar to your
diode array (a simple three wire commutator would let you turn the wheel
at the same rate you turn the commutator.).
You would just be running it at maximum voltage/current when you do.
The problem is that just as the speed varies with the applied voltagein a motor,
the generated voltage varies with the applied windspeed on a windmill.
You still need a controller to regulate the load on the motor.
The easiest way to see this is to hook an electric
motor up on something with a crank of the drive, or if you have
an e-bike, turn it over and disconnect the motor from the speed controller.
When you turn the motor by hand with the circuit open (nothing connected) it turns
freely.
When you turn the motor with the wires shorted together (temporarily)
it is very hard to turn. The work is going into making voltage and current
internally.
WARNING: DO NOT DRIVE THE MOTOR WITH THE WIRES SHORTED.
Just turn it by hand.
The controller, in your case, regulates the voltage being generated so that
you can drive your collector at lower than maximum wind speed, but
can gather more power at higher speeds without burning out your charging circuits.
It should ideally keep your battery voltage at a certain level till the current
drops off, then stop generating when the battery bank is full.
-
http://www.thebackshed.com/windmill/articles/GettingStarted.asp (http://www.thebackshed.com/windmill/articles/GettingStarted.asp)
Large Permanent Magnet DC Motors are another option, but you need to find a motor that has a high running voltage. If a motor designed to run at 2000rpm at 120 volts is used on a windmill, then we could expect 12 volts output at over 200 RPM. Motors designed for 12 volts or 24 volts ( like electric scoota motors ), will only make a 4 to 6 volts when used on a windmill, too low.
http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/Oatley-windmill.asp (http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/Oatley-windmill.asp)
Results.
The blades performed very well, achieving a high RPM for low wind conditions. Startup was quick as the DC motors have no cogging.
But output voltage was way down on what I had hoped for. In a 20kmh breeze, open circuit voltage was only 5 volts, even though the windmill was going like a bat out of hell. Surprising was the output current. When I shorted the windmill I had an easy 10 amps, and the windmill only slowed down slightly with this load.
Bad start up could use a small controller to get the prop turning or manual cranking. The wind turbines seem to operate well when moving.
Using 3 or 4 motors in series with shafts welded together on a single large prop could prove quite an interesting project.
Gears should work but avoid this if you can as this takes away from efficiency and creates more noise.
You could rewind a single motor with more turns with smaller gauge magnet wire.
The HBS motor with its windings may suite you purpose better as its RPM~torque~wattage looks to be more usable. Ball park figures here, It could deliver 15v 15 amps continuous amps at 400 RPM as this can charge a 48v battery when regen is initiated. Cogging would no doubt stop the prop from spinning up originally so disconnect all loads to get the prop to spin and the results could excellent. You just may get 500 watts from a windy day from a HBS motor.
The problem is you need the minimum watts the motor puts out in average to low wind conditions to at least charge your battery and on a windy day switch off charging, or stop prop rotation, or shunt and waste much energy to avoid overcharging, a very imperfect solution for a very viable renewable energy application.
-
Alan,
Is it possible to use this for some crude regenerative braking that is missing on HPC100B ?
Dajs
It's possible to run the 3Phase motor with a simple controller similar to your
diode array (a simple three wire commutator would let you turn the wheel
at the same rate you turn the commutator.).
You would just be running it at maximum voltage/current when you do.
The problem is that just as the speed varies with the applied voltagein a motor,
the generated voltage varies with the applied windspeed on a windmill.
You still need a controller to regulate the load on the motor.
The easiest way to see this is to hook an electric
motor up on something with a crank of the drive, or if you have
an e-bike, turn it over and disconnect the motor from the speed controller.
When you turn the motor by hand with the circuit open (nothing connected) it turns
freely.
When you turn the motor with the wires shorted together (temporarily)
it is very hard to turn. The work is going into making voltage and current
internally.
WARNING: DO NOT DRIVE THE MOTOR WITH THE WIRES SHORTED.
Just turn it by hand.
The controller, in your case, regulates the voltage being generated so that
you can drive your collector at lower than maximum wind speed, but
can gather more power at higher speeds without burning out your charging circuits.
It should ideally keep your battery voltage at a certain level till the current
drops off, then stop generating when the battery bank is full.
Maybe make a Y splitter from generator to split to Bikemad's rectifier diodes and split to some TVS diodes rated at 14v zener and a low resistance high wattage load output, rated closely to the maximum output voltage of the residue zener voltage after the 14v drop, this could provide a good current path and add some automated control over the prop speed when zener breaks down.
-
IMHO you would need more of the HPM-5000 motors in series to get the volts high enough at wind prop speed with no gears to charge A 12V sla and A VERY LARGE SLA at that. The HBS motors are better for this and use more HBS in parallel motors for the extra current as it's better topology to run separate generators with their own prop in parallel than in series unless you connects all generators shafts that are electrically connected in series to the single prop. Which all ends up all the same if the OP requires 5kw. Still if a HBS can output 15 max amps this is pretty awesome and enough to charge a 80ah batttery in average wind conditions and a 150 ah battery in high wind conditions.
Power is all down to the prop area once you achieve the optimum RPM with load to project the high enough voltage and from the looks the HPM-5000 isnt up to the task without gears unless you run more in series.
The big question is does the OP really need 5kw power and if he does, using multiple HPM-5000 in series could work.
However 5 HBS 1000 watt motors in parallel spinning from a single prop could prove a much cheaper and more efficient path.
From a single prop 5 HBS motors could be connected turned by a 1 to 1 gear linkage, or better, the housings could be bolted front to tail. Anyway you look at it 5kw is a large heavy project.
If the OP wanted to use separate props per parallel connection with the HBS motor this would up the cost but could milk more power out of unpredictable gusts. EG 5 wind turbines on 5 hbs motors in parallel connection to a single battery.
-
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/HPM5000BGenerator-1.JPG)
Is it possible to use this for some crude regenerative braking that is missing on HPC100B ?
Dajs.
It might work if switched in parallel with the speed controller during braking, but only when the motor is turning fast enough to produce a greater voltage then the main battery you're using to power it.
I was just able to get someone to help me spin my 72V motor.
The best I could read was this,
19.98 VAC at 2000 RPM
Unless I've got it completely wrong, it would have to spin faster than its maximum unloaded driven speed before it would start to actually generate and provide any resistance. (braking effect).
If you did manage to find a really long steep hill, you would probably need some form of regulator to prevent too much voltage/current being forced into the battery at really high revs.
A suitable speed controller with regen capabilities has got to be the best option for obtaining practical regen from this motor.
Alan
-
Join me over at http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=1757.0