Much More Powerful Pie Now!!!

[o00scorpion00o]

I'm back now, was nice to have the house to myself for a while, nice to have her back though 

Leslie that was a good deal alright . When do you expect it to be delivered? It will have a nice journey to get to you down there! I have no idea when I will get my new controller, but I can't wait. It even has a switch on this one, so I don't have to play with relays or voltage regulators 

You will be happy with a dual pie setup I bet. I will  be interested to know what amps each of your internal controllers will pull!

Has anyone ever thought of some kind of step up regulator to up the voltage from say 48v to 72 volts? Stepping up the voltage is not a problem I bet, it's the current handling and the power consumption of the converter? It would be cool though! 100 volts through my Pie, MUAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA 

[Leslie]

I'm back now, was nice to have the house to myself for a while, nice to have her back though  

Leslie that was a good deal alright . When do you expect it to be delivered? It will have a nice journey to get to you down there! I have no idea when I will get my new controller, but I can't wait. It even has a switch on this one, so I don't have to play with relays or voltage regulators  

You will be happy with a dual pie setup I bet. I will  be interested to know what amps each of your internal controllers will pull!

Has anyone ever thought of some kind of step up regulator to up the voltage from say 48v to 72 volts? Stepping up the voltage is not a problem I bet, it's the current handling and the power consumption of the converter? It would be cool though! 100 volts through my Pie, MUAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA  

I can do that booster.  You convert current into volts, But inductor for 50 amps 48v, to 30 amps 72v approx would need and inductor, capacitor and controll circuit almost the size of and weight of the other cells to make more volts.

Fortunately and idea like that remains pratical, as you can get good efficiency for voltage  boosters.  They become more efficient the harder you push them.  Like the a 12v to mains inverters.  Over 90% efficiency can be had to the conversion.


Use a 72v brushed controller with PWM output, you put a high amp diode and an inductor in boost circuit orientation and adjust the voltage with the brushed controller throttle wires with duty cycle.  Another pipe dream of mine !  The brushed controller has been used before as a power transmission device for battery packs with longer power cables..  It improves efficiency. I haven't seen someone use the PWM and inductor over the output though.

We do have some fun in this thread of yours.    

[o00scorpion00o]

Hi Leslie,

Yes we do have good fun here and also good dreams LOL. 

But yes, a converter would be nice, a switch on the handlebars and then you have  turbo!  It kinda makes the star, delta thing seem much easier, apart from all the wires and relays and switches. I wonder if there would be much of a speed benefit by using 72 volts with the pie? or would it just make it more inefficient ?

[Leslie]

Hi Leslie,

Yes we do have good fun here and also good dreams LOL.  

But yes, a converter would be nice, a switch on the handlebars and then you have  turbo!   It kinda makes the star, delta thing seem much easier, apart from all the wires and relays and switches. I wonder if there would be much of a speed benefit by using 72 volts with the pie? or would it just make it more inefficient ?

I drew up this in about 30 mins.  I havent had much time to study it.  The diode polarity configuration makes my head spin so it could be wrong. Some may not be needed. but I threw them in just for the sake of it.



Its just a theory as you prolly better to build your own switcher with an IC with feedback control so you can make the voltage stable at different loads.

You could control boosting at the brushed throttle.  Hmm even build a feedback control with a transistor so when the voltage rises high it reduces the PWM from the brushed controller,

It gives a good idea about whats involved though.

efficiency should be fine as long as it used for turbo, meaning its designed for intermittent use and scaled for a defined purpose not for continuous use.

You need a big toroid for low to mid range khz switching.  Maybe epoxy 10* 5amp yellow iron powder toroids stack into one core and coil some big AWG copper around them.

The cap is expensive.  Like I got 4 22000uf 100v caps here.  I havent done the math for the caps but these are worth $100+ dollars each.

So maybe the bigger series batteries are cheaper than this.

[o00scorpion00o]

I am sure Leslie, you will be modding at least one of your pies really soon LOL   

[Leslie]

I am sure Leslie, you will be modding at least one of your pies really soon LOL  

Nooooo!

Ive just done my tax cheque well and true.  I want to get on my feet and get some parts before I do anything like that.  I like to be in the safe zone before taking any risks.

I might get your Infineon for a spare in a few weeks.  Then I might do some modding.  

I know I am boring but I like to enjoy my pie before I burn it.

[o00scorpion00o]

Why didn't you get the external controller pies Leslie? I know you won't be able to resist modding and you will only have to go to the trouble of running wires, but hey, I suppose that's the fun part. 

I hope I don't have much trouble matching hall and phase wires, though there is good info on the ebikes.ca site about differen't configs.


These are questions that has been confusing me for a while.

Do you automatically get more torque if you increase battery voltage. I know speed goes up, but do you get more torque too?

And also, does your range increase with more voltage? I know it does with more amps, but would a 72 volt 15 amp give me the same (or more) range as my 52v ping?

[Leslie]

I got the internal controllers because they were on special.

I need the bikes to work, we have no public transport to speak of so it costs me $20 cab fare just to get bread and milk.



These are my little devils, sometime the wife or I really need to get out away from these little darlings.  The bikes are our life blood.

I just got into world war 3 with the wife today to purchase two Li Ping packs as it was her tax cheque that paid for all this.  The GM packs were not going to do up to 3 full cycles a day and make through to the next year.

My wife loves to go on 30+ km trips and trail home our 60kgs of goods home, So the 24ah SLA's at $110 each were lucky to give us 6mths.

I feel ashamed I didnt buy the GM packs being such a GM fanboi.  Please don't make me feel like I need to mod, not just yet anyway.  I didnt even get the CA I wanted..

Damned was costing us $800 a year in 24ah SLA's to what I needed to do. 48v 24ah SLA vs a 48v 12ah GM pack.  I needed Lifepo4 and nothing less..

I have the HBS to mod.  And when I get a spare controller and atleast one MP up and running for our needs then playing around is not so crucial.

[o00scorpion00o]

Ah cute little devils they are too! 

Well the row was worth it as the pings are really good batteries! If I can get 30 miles full throttle, ( I still have yet to fully discharge it ) that means 1000 cycles = 30000 miles 85% capacity after 1000 ( full ) cycles. That's many years of use for me, I would Imagine, as I will not be using it as much in the winter, it's dark by 4.30 5pm anyway, and I wouldn't ride very far at night on these roads here! Now that's 1C discharge rate meaning 20 amps continuous, I'm not sure if short bursts of over 30 amps would matter much? Anyway I have yet to hear of anyone reaching 1000 cycles on LiFeP04, and there might be a chance of a lot more cycles! I can't wait for silicon nano batteries with 10 times the capacity and ultra fast charging!

I also do not understand why GM are not offering LiFeP04 with their Bike kits?

Anyway, maybe you should not mod it unless something happens as your wife might not be too happy if you burn the pie's! 

You will definitely appreciate the pie's pulling power, though if memory serves me correctly, at stock, the pie with internal controller was not as torquey as my 1kw conhismotor. And I lost a race with pat up the steep motorway bridge! And pat is heaver than I. Though my pie had a limit of 15 amps. Yours might be different!

Anyway I'm looking forward to your experiences with this beast of a pie! 

[Leslie]

These are questions that has been confusing me for a while.

Do you automatically get more torque if you increase battery voltage. I know speed goes up, but do you get more torque too?

And also, does your range increase with more voltage? I know it does with more amps, but would a 72 volt 15 amp give me the same (or more) range as my 52v ping?

You get the torque that is in the new speed hit with higher voltages, meaning where you have speed say at 36v gong 35kph, you have no torque at 45kph do you?  torque doesn't exist above 35kph with 36v.  When you upgrade to 48v, there is now torque between 35 kph and 45 kph.

Respectively not much torque gains with volts, Remember you don't multply any volts and amps for torque as this is watts, but IMO its addition.

My theory is that torque can be in the speed that higher volts has.

With more winding around your cores or more coils per phase, volts (energy) can transfer into torque.  It depends on your motor.

Besides,

If the bike is not running at optimum voltage not enough energy is transferred along the entire power train.  Resistance can impede the amps.

The question becomes answered with this hypothesis.


100 amps at 1 volt, 100 watts, has no torque worth anything.

100v at 1 amp, 100 watts is pretty useless too.  but you just might get some speed happening.

Energy puts worth to power and power puts worth to energy.


Say if your entire power train impedance was 1 ohm and you volts was 48v.

48v/1=48 amps.

at 24v

24/1 = 24 amps.

Which one will have more torque?

I think the Pie offers more torque at higher volts.  Not just by ohm laws either. by newtons law when you see the  length of the Pies pulling arm,



The Pie phase coil length as we have said has a long pulling arm that can make you volts behave as torque.

The range increase question is easy.

Say a 36v 20ah battery limited to 20 amps goes for 1 hour at 36kph

And a 48v 20ah battery limited to 20amps goes for 1 hour at 45 kph

Which one travels further in the hour.  The 48v battery.

It translates different in real world applications with wind resistance and so on, but you get my point.

[Leslie]

Another spanner in the works of the 2d model theorists torque model is.  Ebikea.ca simulation.

If torque is KG force per meter

Use one of the resistances torque needs to over come on a powered vehicle.  Wind not just the bike moving. But blowing wind in the trees wind.

Wind asserts KG against the rider,

a 48v 20 amp motor overcomes the wind at 42kph.  Travels more meters against wind kg.  = more meters per load KG than a 36v motor.

Higher volts at the same current travels further.

load 10kg against a wheel that travels 1 meter.

load 10 kg against a wheel that travels 3 meters.

The wheel that travels 3 meters has to push more force against 10kg to travel 3 meters.  Does it not?  

The new letter to the science is K and many are falling over themselves to understand it.  My theory is that K does not exist and those who believe this doctrine are not seeing torque as it hides behind a myriad of many other resistances we often do not apply in simple modeling.

So cant explain it perfectly in 2d or 3d because we live in 7D, origin theory states we live in an eternity of eternities branching out from one point..

So sleep deprivation has taken its toll, and my mind is starting to wander randomness.

You can touch stars they say are dead.  They say its gone, then they too are just faded images of light in the distance.  If you can see it, just like the man across that road you walk along, and if our arms are long enough to embrace, and they travel fast enough to there before his light fades from our eyes, you can touch it.

I you can believe this, you can reach any star.

Synaptic break down pushes me to sleep.

Night Scorpion.

[o00scorpion00o]

Well I can understand that higher volts means more speed = more distance travelled. If I'm getting it right?

I wish now that I had a 72v ping, but hey, I just want to enjoy my bike now, and 24-26 ish mph is good enough. I hope my controller arrives by next weekend! I presume they notify you and give you a tracking number when it's all shipped out. But Really I only placed the order on Sunday, and Vancouver is 8 hours behind, so they didn't get it until late Monday evening my time which is GMT.

 

[Leslie]

Basically what is common belief, more amps makes more torque, and more volts makes more speed.  Then some try to understand why more volts gets more speed because AMPS = more torque.

Confusion sets in trying to explain more speed so theorists, as everything is a theory in physics, invented a new unit called K,  Which is really torque.

So I say that more volts gives more torque but other will argue that it is K.  

The K unit does work, But its strange I can discuss motor physics in entirety using the magnetic density/intensity Amps/volts theory converting to torque with no missing data..

Energy gives substance in mass over time, even though particle density may not be present in in high volume yields.  High energy (volts) still can sum to magnetic torque when resistant forces "inertia" manifests from a centre point load and levered from a radium distance squared * 22/7.  

We talk of 3D models is 4/3 * pi * r3 better defined by 4/3 * 22/7 * r3  magnetic radiation is 3d in nature.

Maybe we should call our new motors a Magic PI.  Motor physics we use is more linear to astrophysics.  But in essence the world of magnetism is not flat.

[Sundsvall]

If there's no air resistance, no resistance in the bearings, no resistance in the tyres and so on there's more speed with higher volts. But if you make higher volts from a battery you have less amps and therefore the resistances probably makes the bike slower. What takes you forward is the total amount of energy. I have now a frog style battery pack from GM and the voltage from that pack is far more stable under stress than my old lead batteries and therefore the top speed has increased despite the fact that the unloaded voltage is the same.

Peter

[Leslie]

If there's no air resistance, no resistance in the bearings, no resistance in the tyres and so on there's more speed with higher volts.

Peter

Perfect.  Discount all resistance, physical and electrical and inertia too and one could travel faster than the speed of light forever on a 1v pack in the blink of an eye.

Ion engines in space use so little torque against inertia but can get up to awesome speeds over long distances and time, weight and inertia is the bottle neck to super fast acceleration..

But!

Why does more volts equate to less amps?  It doesn't, by ohms law at least..

Please read on.

Voltage / Resistance = Amps (I).

Yes more cells = more resistance to amps but not by voltage/resistance.

Say a 20ah Li-ion 3.8v cell block = .012 ohms

___________

10 cells for a 36v pack

10*3.8v = 38v

10*.012= .12ohms


V/R=I

38v/.12ohm= 316amps

A dead short with a 500 amp rated cable over this pack with no shunt or impedance's, will allow 316 amps
___________

13 cells for a 48v pack

13*3.8v= 49.4v

13*.012=.156 ohms

V/R=I

49.4v/.156 ohms=316.666 Amps

A dead short with a 500 amp cable over this pack with no shunt or impedance's, will allow 316.666 amps

Voltage must always overcome resistance or else no battery or electronics would ever work.

You would melt and make fire at these low resistances and current flow.  You would literally require a very fat conductive power line with 0 resistance to achieve this pack output amperage.  But it is theoretically plausible.

There is a waste of watts with higher physical resistances and electrical resistance of batteries with volts and this will decrease range, but more increase of range is had by the added speed the volts gives you per AH.

Aerodynamics, ultra low friction bearings, slick hard tires, good electrical components, low resistance power cables and switches, better adjusted brakes systems, low magnetic cogging, Smooth flat grade terrain, can all hand back range via speed gains in leaps and bounds..  

I do hope those who read this thread takes the time to try understand this post, as it took me time to formulate and is one of my best posts on this subject so far.