Loose spokes!

[Hyena]

Hey guys,

After waiting months for my Magic Pie it finally arrived and I bolted it on. After 50km of riding (second charge) I noticed a metallic squeeking sound like something in the hub was rubbing or something was stuck in my spokes. After a quick look I found it WAS my spokes. I didn't check them when I first got it but I assume they were a bit tighter as I didn't notice the noise and wobble on the first ride. Check out the below video. I can wobble each spoke with my fingers and pushing on the tire makes the whole rim flop about up to 10mm side to side! Needless to say I don't have any back brakes hooked up at the moment.

Yao / GM, what are your thoughts on this ?


https://youtu.be/hg9CUYYtRJg

edit: I forgot youtube is banned in china, here's the video hosted elsewhere

http://www.coresworld.net/hyena/MagicPie/loose%20spokes.wmv

[GM Canada]

Hi Hyena,

I just watched your video. I have had this problem in the past with spokes being loose. I check every wheel before I send it out because sometimes in shipping they can be dropped to hard and this can cause this problem to arise. At least I believe this is how it happins. I would recomend buying your self a spoke wrench that fits and checking them on a regular basis. Your wheel however is loose enough that it is beyond being fixed by anyone but a bike mechanic if you want it done right. Take it off the bike and to a local bike shop and have it trued. I have done this several times now and most rims can be trued for about 10 to 20 dollars.

Gary

[Jazzjerry]

I also find the spokejob very poor.

It starts out with some of the spokes being loose, but that is not the biggest problem. The spokes are xtra thick............ well only in the middle.

The spokes are size 13 which is thicker then normal bike spokes, but the threading is the bad part and much thinner. I think the holes in the rimm are for a normal standard size 14 spoke and they put threading on the spokes that is smaller than the accual spoke itself so the spoke nipples will fit the rimm holes.

So the thickker spoke is obsolete since the weak point will always be the thread that is thinner then the rest of the spoke.

Also the rim is very much off center which could have been fixed by spoking the wheel countering the off center probem by making the spokes shorter on 1 side and longer on the other side.

I also posted about this problem in this forum Here http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=1490.msg8075#msg8075

This is the picture....


So I agree this needs attention.

[Hyena]

Yep my rim is similarly offset with a 6 speed cluster. I'm going to hunt around for a 3 speed one, I don't need all the gears anyway and I reckon that'd help the alignment greatly.

As for the spokes I think they're too loose for even a bike shop to be able to fix. A few of them have a little thread showing so could be tightened but many very loose ones look like there's no more adjustment in them

[Leslie]

Yep my rim is similarly offset with a 6 speed cluster. I'm going to hunt around for a 3 speed one, I don't need all the gears anyway and I reckon that'd help the alignment greatly.

As for the spokes I think they're too loose for even a bike shop to be able to fix. A few of them have a little thread showing so could be tightened but many very loose ones look like there's no more adjustment in them

I pluck the spokes like a guitar string to find all the tight spokes and lose spokes.  Obviously the tight spokes make a higher pitch.

Providing the spokes are all the same breed, I go around the wheel with my nipple tool and make them all the same tune while trying to maintain even length and a lowish tension. Its better to loosen the over tight spokes first, some times you have to watch for a cluster of tight spokes, as you undo them it increases the tension on the last spokes, so I loosen all spokes in the cluster a bit at a time and repeat. Once I know they are all equal in tone and tension, and they are not too tight,  I then true the wheel.  Sometimes it comes out perfect straight by just making sure they have the same tension and tune.  I could almost do this blindfolded.

I use a big 12 gauge spoke on one wheel I use now and the spokes are not too tight, quite lose to some bikes, but they are all equal, this makes sure the wheel stays true for some time to come.

Oil the nipples with a light oil before you go near them.   If you're tone deaf ignore my post.

[Mabman]

For that wheel you may want to go back to square one? Loosen all the spokes until there is the same amount of threading either showing or just at the outer edge of the nipple. Take a spoke wrench (I prefer the spoke key type that captures 3 sides of the nipple instead of the two sided ones) and starting at the valve hole as a reference point turn the key equally for each spoke one turn until you hit the hole again. Check the tension and repeat as necessary and as you approach good tension (313357's tone method works well here) you can reduce to 1/2 turn until you feel that it is right. Sometimes you may want to do a full turn on the drive side and a half turn on the non drive side to induce dish but always apply the same amount of turn to all the spokes from valve hole to valve hole. Other wise you can egg shape your rim slightly which is annoying to ride although the rim might be true from side to side.

It really helps to have a truing stand and there are plans online for homemade ones or they can be bought also. Because of the issues that people are having with offcenter rims due to the MP hub, as Jerry said the drive side spokes should be shorter than the non drive side ones. 2mm is usually the amount and if GM is not doing this at the factory I am afraid that nobody will be able to get the correct centering of their rims. The fact that they are not using a 622mm bead rim is also a no no.

Some like to pre-stress their wheels by squeezing the spokes as they work them up to tension also. Otherwise get it where you think it should be then ride the bike a bit and go back over it again and then you should be good for miles. It is a common thing for a new wheel to need treatment after initial riding in the bike industry and that is why many shops that sell bikes like to see them come back after a short while to go over the wheel tension along with the cables that stretch also.

[Leslie]

Cheers Mabman.

Also my HBS axel has strayed over time.  If my rim was properly true it would appear warped.  This can happen,  good brakes with no pad friction is more important to me.

The tune method goes a long way to find an uneven tension between spokes without actually putting tool to nipple.  You can even mark the offending spokes with a (red for tight and black for lose) felt pen, helps to indicate where the faults may lie..

I have found on numerous wheels that some spokes on one side are so tight to make up for spokes (on the same side nearest to the tight spokes) that are loose.  Or two very tight on the outside of one loose in between them. Or worse, one tight spoke holding up for surrounding loose spokes. This imbalance will have them all breaking over time.

Egg shapes need to be corrected symmetrically,  from opposite sides of the wheel radially.  You may find releasing the nipples on both close sides oppositely  and tightening the 45 deg adjacent spokes will push the egg out.

I do look at the remaining thread to maintain an even radius around the whole wheel too, and half turns to release too much tension is acceptable.  

Tension can get out of hand when trueing. I often tend to finish off too tight, as the game changes when re-tensioning,  the more you go around the wheel and the spokes pull the opposing side tighter. So if, half around the rim is properly tight by the time you get all way around, the rim spokes will be too tight.

[Leslie]

I also find to start off in a four side cross pattern, the same as advised to do a car wheel.    With all spokes in place ready for truing, yes start at the valve and do three spokes up a little, and three on the opposite "180 deg" side ..  Check your spoke thread length on these six spokes are equal, then do adjacent and match the spoke thread length, do this until the rim doesn't move about.  Match all the remaining spokes looking at the thread length, then go around and tension the whole wheel with half turns.  Then tune by sound to make sure you haven't stuffed up.  Then true out the bumps.

[Mabman]

There truly are many ways to spoke a wheel! The way I do it and the way I have seen others do it are almost completely opposite methods yet yield the same results in the end. I have always had good success with the way I learned years ago which is based on my basic description and a good truing stand. But in reality in order to really get how to do this you need to just do it several times with all the knowledge you can gather in hand. A good place to start is by getting any type of wheel and making a few mistakes that you have to learn how to correct in order to not make them again!

[diverdon]

Hey guys,

After waiting months for my Magic Pie it finally arrived and I bolted it on. After 50km of riding (second charge) I noticed a metallic squeeking sound like something in the hub was rubbing or something was stuck in my spokes. After a quick look I found it WAS my spokes. I didnt check them when I first got it but I assume they were a bit tighter as I didnt notice the noise and wobble on the first ride. Check out the below video. I can wobble each spoke with my fingers and pushing on the tire makes the whole rim flop about up to 10mm side to side! Needless to say I don't have any back brakes hooked up at the moment.

Yao / GM, what are your thoughts on this ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SaffdFGSmM

edit: I forgot youtube is banned in china, here's the video hosted elsewhere

http://www.coresworld.net/hyena/MagicPie/loose%20spokes.wmv

       WOW , I haven't seen any that loose before . Were you riding the bike like that ??

      I am just posting here to ask a dumb question . The nipple of the spoke turns clockwise onto the spoke to tighten it ... Right Sorry for the dumb question . I too have loose spokes I'm pretty sure .. On the 2nd ride out the rear "powered" wheel was making some noise like a cable tie was tied in such a way as to be in the spokes ... tink-tink-tink noise but I could not find any problems .. Went for a 6 mile ride and when I got back I realized the noise was gone ..

        Now I don't know how tight spokes are supposto be other than past experience but these seem sorta loose .

    So please can someone tell me which way is tighten I really hope it's not left and right spoke are different threads . Seems to me the nipples should just tighten down on the spoke and you just tighten them evenly unless common sense tells you there's a real loose one ..

    Thanks Again For Listening to my Bableing ... Don J. P.S. Totally happy with my bike in every way . this is just a little thing .. D.J.


Edited to separate Don's reply from Hyena's quote.

P.S. The spokes have a normal right hand thread, so when looking at the nipple from the hub end of the spoke, it must be turned anticlockwise to tighten it.

[Balderdash]

I also have the "tink-tink-tink" as described by Don... 

I haven't had time to investigate much but the wheel feels like it can be pushed too easily left/right. No spokes are as loose as in the Youtube video!

Couple of questions please:

What size spoke spanner/wrench do I need to tighten the spokes?

What happens if the spoke is still loose after it is tightened all the way up?

Thanks...

[Bikemad]

What size spoke spanner/wrench do I need to tighten the spokes?

What happens if the spoke is still loose after it is tightened all the way up?

Jim,

I use one of these universal type spoke keys:



The one I have is cheap and cheerful and came in a tool kit, but seems to work OK but is slightly loose on size 13, and 14 is too tight to fit over these nipples.

If a spoke is still loose after it is tightened all the way up, then either the spoke is too long or the rim has been offset too far.
Putting small washers under the head of the nipple may help to get around this problem.

Alan
 

[Balderdash]

Thanks Alan.

I'll have a proper look into it this weekend.

[diverdon]

   Hello Everyone , So Does anyone yet know what size spoke wrench to use on this bike wheel ? I went into a shop today to buy a "universal" spoke wrench and they only had specefic sizes .. I remember a #o and #1 tool ..

     I had a dumb crash on my first outing (My fault not the bikes) and cracked some ribs ... I an ready to start back now but the spokes are still loose and I need a tool to tighten them ....

      Please could someone steer me the right way so I can get the spokes tightened and get back up on the bike ..  Thanks soooo Much , Don J.

[Jazzjerry]

Auwch.... Ribs are so painfull... will take you 6 weeks of pain...

I cracked a bunch a few years back and could nearly not get out of bed the first couple of mornings.