Author Topic: Climbing on hills and uplands  (Read 32519 times)

Offline Just

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Climbing on hills and uplands
« on: May 10, 2011, 02:37:19 AM »
Hello Guys,

I need you share  your experience on the hills and uplands climbing with a single and dual 48V Magic Pie motors.

How is the MagicPie powerful on the hills?

Actually the price of the double MagicPie motors (total 2KW) is about the same as a single mid motor (1.2KW), which can use the bicycle's gears.

What configuration might be more powerful? Is a single 48V MagicPie motor not enough for the uplands?

Any opinion / experience are welcome.

Thank you

Offline Magzy

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Re: Climbing on hills and uplands
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2011, 05:58:41 AM »
My rear 48V Pie (with stock controller) will do 40kph on the flat and about 10kph Edit: to say that I tested it last night and it dod about 20kph on This hill: http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=leichhardt&aq=&sll=-25.335448,135.745076&sspn=21.438269,77.34375&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Leichhardt+New+South+Wales&ll=-33.880321,151.147842&spn=0,0.077162&z=14&layer=c&cbll=-33.88026,151.147685&panoid=Q3Wp6KR5BDdPs2TIBDizuQ&cbp=12,91.1,,0,2.4

...This is a lot steeper than it looks. (I'm a princly 100kgs  :-*)


In order to get more torque (speed up hills) then you need to pump more amps into it - which means getting a higher rated controller.

In order to get just more speed then you need to pump more voltage into it.

The bottleneck with the MP isn't the motor itself but the amps going through the stock controller. which is at the time of writing is about 16A MAX.

Some people have hooked up bigger controllers that will pump the amps and hill climbing & acceleration is a breeze but you will need the batteries to match (typically a 12AH rated at 3C will give 12*3 = 36A max output

Hooked up to the MP and high rated AMP controller (>30A) it will climb most hills that cars can go up - and at a decent speed. Also, this will have great acceleration on the flat too.

Just remember to fit Torque arms if you go down this high amperage route.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 03:09:14 AM by Magzy »

Offline MonkeyMagic

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Re: Climbing on hills and uplands
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2011, 06:46:11 AM »
Magzy that hill looks like a killer !!!

Dunno it looks like 20+ degrees, wouldn't wanna pedal that !!

Offline Magzy

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Re: Climbing on hills and uplands
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2011, 07:36:00 AM »
I'ts a killer alright but not as bad as this hill however:

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=annandale&aq=&sll=-25.335448,135.745076&sspn=62.018529,79.013672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Annandale+New+South+Wales&ll=-33.874433,151.166025&spn=0.00181,0.002411&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=-33.874539,151.166011&panoid=8KvJjBrOqkp1knbBNhfQ-w&cbp=12,100.9,,0,8.29

I will manage to do just ~2-3kph Edit: to say that I tested it last night and it did about ~10kph up this beast -  It gets up though without pedaling - it's about 100m long
(48v ~16A stock GM controller 130kg rider & bike)

I've taken a shot whereby you can calculate the angle of the post and the pavement.

I've pedaled it wthout a motor attached before and you have to zig zag up it in the lowest gear.

The MP will strightline it up about 10X faster than what I could ever pedal up it without getting tired..
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 03:07:50 AM by Magzy »

Offline Magzy

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Re: Climbing on hills and uplands
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2011, 07:49:22 AM »

Actually the price of the double MagicPie motors (total 2KW) is about the same as a single mid motor (1.2KW), which can use the bicycle's gears.

What configuration might be more powerful?

Thank you


I'm assuming that you meant the mid motor ones from cyclone in Taiwan? http://www.cyclone-tw.com/order-A.htm

I too looked at these before buying the MP but the lack of technical information for the motopr, controller and the battery on the website put me right off.

They make a very loud noise as well and that was the dealbreaker for me.

No pictures of the battery you get with the kit so I couldn't see how it would fit on the bike.

Also, there would be a tendency to snap the chain or the derailer if too much power goes into it but on the good side I can see how it would work very well with the Nuvinci hub gears.





« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 07:54:38 AM by Magzy »

Offline MonkeyMagic

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Re: Climbing on hills and uplands
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2011, 09:13:10 AM »
Lol Magzy I bought and very near added my cyclone motor to my dual drive haha for acceleration

The geared 1200W will munch that hill no problems through the gears but yes it will be loud and if you treat the motor anything but too nice you will first blow the controller, then probly eat the plastic internal gears.

So I'm leaving my cyclone for another project.... I'm thinking 28" dual mini + cyclone drive for a triple brushless geared setup haha

Through a 3 speed should yield around 80km/h with performance throughout the speed range

Offline Just

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Re: Climbing on hills and uplands
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2011, 12:49:35 PM »
Magzy,

you have wrote: "I'm assuming that you meant the mid motor ones from cyclone in Taiwan?" -the answer is YES.

you wrote: "I can see how it would work very well with the Nuvinci hub gears" - what exactly Nuvinci hub gear do you use? Why does it work better? What about just hub transmissions?

My guess that double MP 48V 1000V motors will have the same power as one 1200W 48V cyclone motor. But it's only a guess... But two MP motors weigh 15kg and the cyclone one is only 2.5kg... Yes, it need a high-end battery for acceleration (in peaks the motor takes up to 60A).

you wrote: "The bottleneck with the MP isn't the motor itself but the amps going through the stock controller. which is at the time of writing is about 16A MAX." - the Magic (Cruise) Controller from GM is programmable and gives up to 30A in continuous current and up to 50A in peaks. Am I wrong?

you wrote: "Some people have hooked up bigger controllers that will pump the amps and hill climbing" - what controller is recommended? Would you put a link to it here?

Thank you

Offline Just

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Re: Climbing on hills and uplands
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2011, 01:03:01 PM »
MonkeyMagic,

Since you have two motor type,  would you please compare them? Let's say a dual drive GM MPII and a single 1200W motor from Cyclone.

Let's say here are what to compare:
1) climbing abilities
2) maximum speed (Cyclone declare 70kmh while GM only 45kmh ...)
3) etc

Is the Cyclone motor loudly on the flat surface as well?

you wrote: "I'm thinking 28" dual mini + cyclone drive for a triple brushless geared setup" - what's "mini"? "triple brushless geared" - will you use the Cyclone motor with double GM MPII motors? 

"Through a 3 speed should yield around 80km/h with performance throughout the speed range" - what motor(s) will maintain this speed? Will it be the Cyclone motor?

Thank you

Offline MonkeyMagic

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Re: Climbing on hills and uplands
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2011, 02:26:01 PM »
ok ill fill you in on the mystery

The MagicPie 100% is better. Full stop.

I'm surprised the cyclone is not loud when its off. Check some videos on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O1hzKQNgME
It sounds like a big drill, like other geared/chain motors... It will be loud on any surface even a cloud haha

Sorry my english is Australian, although its proper English in most ways it tends to turn to slang coming from us ;)

Mini = GM mini motors (freewheel motors you have posted about)

They have gears, so does the cyclone, and they are both brushless motor type - hence the 'triple brushless geared'

I was tempted to use it on my dual Magic Pie but no, as I said I am holding off for another project.
The cyclone motor will have greater climbing ability, and possibly more top speed but at the cost of efficiency and noise. It is not much fun to align and fit to your bike either.

I think you just need to buy a Magic Pie man. Seriously you will be a happy chappy and going faster than 45km/h on a push bike is retarded! I don't think I'll ever build a super speed machine its all in monkeys head haha

So the moral of the story is buy the pie. num nums

« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 02:38:38 PM by MonkeyMagic »

Offline Just

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Re: Climbing on hills and uplands
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2011, 04:30:47 PM »
Thank you MonkeyMagic,

I really appreciate  your opinion.

Which Controller would you recommend for using it with the MP in order to increase its speed and climbing ability? It seems I heard it can run on 60V (and I don't know on how many amps)...

BTW, why not to leave the Cyclone motor (how many watt have you got?) on the bike and turn it ON just in a case of hills and uplands? You could easily turn the motor ON/OFF by using a small red button on the right handle of the GM twist throttle... 

Now there is another case... What's better? Adding another MagicPie motor along with the controller to the bike and making it "dual drive" or just having a single MagicPie motor for the regular rides and one Cyclone motor (even just 500W motor w/o any controller) for just climbing? In this case, only one MagicPie motor will work on the flat surfaces while the Cyclone motor will still OFF. And only while climbing you would turn the Cyclone motor ON. It seems that a little noise from the Cyclone motor while climbing might be a small price for the good acceleration... What do you think?

As far as I know, the second MagicPie motor helps just on hills and useless on the flat... Am I wrong?

So, do you turn the second MagicPie motor ON all the time or just while climbing? Turning it ON/OFF would keep the battery energy for the longer rides, isn't?

I look forward to  your responses.

Thank you

Offline Magzy

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Re: Climbing on hills and uplands
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2011, 02:56:50 AM »
"I can see how it would work very well with the Nuvinci hub gears" - what exactly Nuvinci hub gear do you use? Why does it work better? What about just hub transmissions?
I've only seen these http://www.fallbrooktech.com/nuvinci.asp  on the net. They eliminate constant shifting of gears - which at which speed of 70kpm would probably tear the derailleur apart at high speeds.

Also, you would need to reduce throttle right down when changing gears with a conventional gear set.

with the Nuvinci hub and the Cyclone motor you could constantly apply throttle and have an infinite number of gears so you can constantly tweak the gears at full power to fit the terrain.

I've not seen this done before but it would be cool. (if you can manage the noise equivalent to an electric drill)

There's less moving parts to the Nuvinci than conventional gears so less chance of failure or jamming of the gears and very smooth gear changes.

Remember that the Nuvinci is a hub so you can't use it with the rear Magic Pie.

you wrote: "Some people have hooked up bigger controllers that will pump the amps and hill climbing" - what controller is recommended? Would you put a link to it here?

Golden Motor do sell a 50A controller but their website is so horribly designed in such a way that I can't post a direct link to it and there's no actual technical information regarding it.

Go to Goldenmotor.com
click controller on the left
you will now be presented with the following conflicting information:




Nowhere in the Kit building page on the GM website does it mention the controller AMP rating so you can be made to think you will get 50A when this is not the case. You get the "30A" controller.

But to add insult to injury the 30A controller is in fact NOT a 30A controller and is more like a 16A controller.
I don't know why they feel they have to false advertise like or maybe it's an oversight. Either way, it's not acceptable they should be open and honest.

I fell for this trick when buying my MP and it has fallen short of the "30A" expectations.

I don't know what the 50A controller runs at but if the above example is anything to go by then expect it to run at considerably less than 50A.

Perhaps if you ask them nicely you can pay extra and get the larger "50A" controller.

Then there is the reliability factor of the controller which from personal experience is rather poor. I'm on my 3rd one now. Two failed within the space of 30km. This current one has lasted 100km so far and with TLC I expect it to keep on going but it doesn't give out too much power for me and my hilly terrain. So I bought a LYEN edition infineon rated at 30A

From doing research, the infineon controllers are among the best in terms of delivering the "stated" amps and voltage along with providing the reliability but these are pricey unless you go with LYEN Edition controllers (some ebike guy in SF who builds them in his garage and sells them on Endless SPhere at marginal proft).

There's ebay as well but these are a bit of a lottery in terms of what you will get unless you can get recommendations from other buyers.

Offline Magzy

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Re: Climbing on hills and uplands
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2011, 03:15:29 AM »
you wrote: "The bottleneck with the MP isn't the motor itself but the amps going through the stock controller. which is at the time of writing is about 16A MAX." - the Magic (Cruise) Controller from GM is programmable and gives up to 30A in continuous current and up to 50A in peaks. Am I wrong?

You are wrong.
But correct in your understanding of what the website is saying. (assuming you are going off this picture - which again implies the user to assume that these will be the max settings when they are not)



However, the website is incorrect and needs to be changed to say 16A MAX for the controller you will get with the kit because to go beyond this is physically impossible with the components they have inside the controller.

I had bought the USB programming cable and set the software to program the controller at the max setting for continuous ans max but this changed nothing in the performance of the controller Magic pie from the default :(

Maybe GM should change the website to reflect the truth.  ::)

« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 03:24:40 AM by Magzy »

Offline personnel

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Re: Climbing on hills and uplands
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2011, 05:10:22 PM »
to be more clear ... take the continues ampere and divide by 2.
i have an PI200-E (exactly, I have 4 PI200-E...all result on the same situation) and the programmable cable...when I set 30A continues, I have 15A max in all condition (big hill or flat start road).

it's the shunt, the problem...not the programmable setting.

Offline DirtyGinge

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Re: Climbing on hills and uplands
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2011, 07:20:14 PM »
using an infineon controller set on "long range" 30 amp settings, I can peak 50-55 amps on 1 pie only, thats nearly 2500 watts...and I have done this on long 50 mile daily commute....the controller by default handles about 50-60 amps, although this may be too much for the pie.......

As for hills, as long as you start the hill at 10-15 mph, very few hills present a problem

Only if my speed is low do I have many issues, and area is very hilly

motor only gets warm, not hot, on all 25 miles, average 22mph
Infineon lyen edition 12 Fet
Goldenmotor Magic pie rear ....2000 Watt peak
oh yea.....Im too fat :)...but cute, oh yea, im cute

Offline Just

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Re: Climbing on hills and uplands
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2011, 07:55:01 PM »
Magzy,

Would you like to provide a link to the mentioned by you Controller?

Thanks