Author Topic: Black Magic stuck  (Read 7237 times)

Offline Ag3n7

  • Confirmed
  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Black Magic stuck
« on: July 09, 2014, 12:25:15 AM »
Hi,
I installed my Black Magic (BM) on my foldable, turned the battery on and slowly pressed the thumb throttle, only to hear a slight hum for about 3 seconds and nothing. When I move the bike into a forward motion and press the throttle, BM will lock the wheel and literally stop the bike. Depending on the location of the halls in BM, it seems that whenever I push the throttle, the magnet finds a specific spot on a hall or wherever and does not move for 3-4 secs.
My BA shows the the amps peaks to 419Watts and the down to zero. My volts are about 51.3 volts for that short amount of time.
I disconnected almost everything from the external controller except the throttle itself, same issue.
I really want to start riding my bike. Please help.

Offline Ag3n7

  • Confirmed
  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: Black Magic stuck
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2014, 09:58:51 AM »
Adding some additional findings:

The wheel spins freely when I move or lift up the bike and spin the wheel, so it is safe to assume the wheel is mounted correctly without issue.
Doing some additional research, some of the posts indicate that I might have a faulty controller.

I have programmed the cycle analyst (CA) to see if that was the issue, does not appear to be.

Tried looking at the problem again last night, when I lift the bike up and spin the wheel and press the throttle, the wheel will stop. Put the bike on the floor and walk with it, press the throttle, it will either spring forward an inch and freeze or spring backward an inch and freeze.

This is frustrating.  >:(
Need help on what my next steps are please.

 

Offline Bikemad

  • Global Moderator
  • Professor
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,508
Re: Black Magic stuck
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2014, 10:05:00 AM »
Hi andto the forum.

It sounds as if the phase wires and Hall sensors might be out of sync, or one of the Hall sensors is not responding.

With the external controller it is quite easy to check the correct operation of the three Hall sensors:
Using a voltmeter, you will need to measure the voltage on each of the Hall sensor signal wires (The thin Yellow, Green and Blue wires).
Push the Black meter probe into the "Z/0V" connection to make contact with the crimped metal connector and then push the Red meter probe into the Yellow Hall sensor connection.
With the battery tuned on you should have a voltage reading that continually alternates between zero and five volts as the wheel is turned very slowly by hand.
Move the Red probe into the Green Hall sensor connector and try the same test and the voltage reading should alternate again, then do the same with the Blue Hall sensor.
If the reading from all three sensors alternates between zero and 5 volts when the wheel is moved slowly, it at least means that the hall sensors are working correctly.

The three thick phase wires (Yellow, Green and Blue) or even the three small Hall sensor wires, may be connected in the wrong sequence, so double check that the wire colours match the colours on the controller connections.

The Hall Sensor connector should have the wires in the following sequence from top to bottom on the controller:
Red, Black, Blue, Green and Yellow.



If this is all OK, there's a slight possibility that the wires may have been marked incorrectly, in which case you will need to find the correct configuration by trial and error, but don't use full throttle, just enough to hopefully make the wheel move.

As you have the external controller, it should run in sensorless mode so you can try unplugging the hall sensors to see if the wheel will run in either direction, but in sensorless mode the wheel will need to be moving before the controller will start to work. If you can secure the bike with the wheel off the ground it will be much easier and safer to spin the wheel and test it.

If the wheel runs in the reverse direction you will need to swap two of the phase wires over and try again.

If it spins in the correct direction, unplug the Yellow wire and then move the Blue wire to the Yellow terminal, the Green wire to the Blue terminal and the refit the Yellow wire on the green terminal.

Reconnect the Hall sensor connector and test with slight throttle again to see if it runs smoothly.
If it doesn't run at all, or runs very roughly, try moving the phase wires along once more:

Unplug the Blue wire and move the Green wire to the Yellow Terminal, the Yellow wire to the Blue terminal and refit the Blue wire to the Green terminal and try the motor again.

Please let me know whether any of the above sorts the problem (or makes any difference).

Alan
 
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 04:36:51 PM by Bikemad »

Offline Ag3n7

  • Confirmed
  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: Black Magic stuck
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2014, 11:55:42 AM »
Thanks Alan for your welcome, response and detailed instructions. I will give it a go tonight and let you know the outcomes.

Winston

Offline Ag3n7

  • Confirmed
  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: Black Magic stuck
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2014, 11:23:15 AM »
Hi Allan,
Followed your instructions and here are the results:

Push the Black meter probe into the "Z/0V" connection to make contact with the crimped metal connector and then push the Red meter probe into the Yellow Hall sensor connection.
With the battery tuned on you should have a voltage reading that continually alternates between zero and five volts as the wheel is turned very slowly by hand.

The readings for yellow: 00.9 For green: 10.3 For blue 3.9 These readings are constant regardless of the slow turn of the wheel.

The three thick phase wires (Yellow, Green and Blue) or even the three small Hall sensor wires, may be connected in the wrong sequence, so double check that the wire colours match the colours on the controller connections.

Checked and confirm the colours match.

As you have the external controller, it should run in sensorless mode so you can try unplugging the hall sensors to see if the wheel will run in either direction, but in sensorless mode the wheel will need to be moving before the controller will start to work. If you can secure the bike with the wheel off the ground it will be much easier and safer to spin the wheel and test it.
Removed the hall sensor and tried the throttle, wheel is rough for a sec and then spins backwards. Changed the phase wires by interchanging the blue and green connection so that blue connects with green, green connects with blue, and yellow remains connected with yellow, the wheel again is rough for a sec and then spins in the correct direction.

If it spins in the correct direction, unplug the Yellow wire and then move the Blue wire to the Yellow terminal, the Green wire to the Blue terminal and the refit the Yellow wire on the green terminal. Reconnect the Hall Sensor.....
Did this, wheel freezes / stutters, hear the motor (however quiet) during that time and cuts off itself in about 3 seconds. Basically the same issue from the beginning.

Unplug the Blue wire and move the Green wire to the Yellow Terminal, the Yellow wire to the Blue terminal and refit the Blue wire to the Green terminal and try the motor again.
Did this and same thing.

What is my next step?  :-\

Offline Bikemad

  • Global Moderator
  • Professor
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,508
Re: Black Magic stuck
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2014, 12:45:58 PM »
Push the Black meter probe into the "Z/0V" connection to make contact with the crimped metal connector and then push the Red meter probe into the Yellow Hall sensor connection.
With the battery turned on you should have a voltage reading that continually alternates between zero and five volts as the wheel is turned very slowly by hand.

The readings for yellow: 00.9 For green: 10.3 For blue 3.9 These readings are constant regardless of the slow turn of the wheel.

A Hall sensor signal output of 10.3V is much too high considering that the supply voltage going into the Hall sensors is only 5V (perhaps it's simply a residual voltage coming from the controller because the Hall sensor has failed completely).
If you check the voltage between the Red (H+/5V) and Black (H-/0V) connections on the Hall sensor connector it should read somewhere around 5V continuously with the controller powered up.
If your expected 5V reading is out by more than 1V I would say the controller is definitely faulty.

Just out of interest, try unplugging the Hall sensor connector and then measuring the voltages between the Black (H-/0V) pin and the Yellow, Green and Blue pins.
I would expect these three voltage readings to be pretty similar, but that doesn't mean that they should be. ;)

It sounds to me like a fault with ether the Hall sensors or the controller itself (but it could even be both if a faulty controller has damaged to the Hall sensors).

I think you should contact your supplier and notify them of the problem and explain the checks you have carried out so far (If you're using email, it might help to include a link to this topic for more details).

Alan
 

Offline Ag3n7

  • Confirmed
  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: Black Magic stuck
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2014, 01:39:11 PM »
Thanks again Alan for your quick response.
Here are my results.

If you check the voltage between the Red (H+/5V) and Black (H-/0V) connections on the Hall sensor connector it should read somewhere around 5V continuously with the controller powered up.
Result reading was 10.9v

Just out of interest, try unplugging the Hall sensor connector and then measuring the voltages between the Black (H-/0V) pin and the Yellow, Green and Blue pins.
I would expect these three voltage readings to be pretty similar, but that doesn't mean that they should be.

Not 5v at all. Yellow: 9.2 Green: 10.3 Blue: 10.3

I have placed a ticket with Gary Salo. Hopefully to have it resolved very soon. Want to ride!

Thanks again Alan!

Winston

Offline Bikemad

  • Global Moderator
  • Professor
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,508
Re: Black Magic stuck
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2014, 03:59:27 PM »
Don't worry Winston, I'm sure Gary will try to get you up and running as soon as he can, but your particular fault is very unusual and it's not clear if the Hall sensors have sustained permanent damaged or not.

I don't know the voltage limits of the GM Hall sensors, but if they are rated the same as the Honeywell SS41 sensors they could cope with a supply voltage of up to 28V without suffering damage, and should still function OK with a 10.9V supply instead of the intended 5V, but I'm a bit concerned that yours did not respond at all to the wheel movement.

With a 10V supply, I would still have expected the Hall sensor's output to alternate between high and low as the wheel was moved very slowly, so it should have alternated between ~0 and ~10V if they were working.

Hopefully you will get a quick response from Gary.



Alan
 

« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 10:50:31 PM by Bikemad »

Offline Morgen 3Eman

  • Confirmed
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 620
Re: Black Magic stuck
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2014, 07:21:53 PM »
Hi guys,

In my experience, when a 5 VDC supply measures 10, the power supply and everything it feeds has failed.  Are you certain the measurement was correctly taken?

I hope I'm wrong, but if it was mine, I'd be ordering everything that has 5 VDC associated with it.

TTFN,
Dennis

Offline Ag3n7

  • Confirmed
  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: Black Magic stuck
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2014, 10:45:08 PM »
Thanks Dennis,
I can take a look once more to confirm.

Offline Ag3n7

  • Confirmed
  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: Black Magic stuck
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2014, 11:53:57 AM »
Update:
Gary had taken a look at it and found the motor was defective but the controller is fine. Received it back and put it back together. Rode into work the next morning. FANTASTIC!  ;D ;D I love this machine. Still trying to figure out how to program the cycle analyst v2 but that can wait.
About 40 km one way to work. Mostly downhill there but major uphill back.
Had a few issues on my ride there, due to my haste in putting it together, I did not tie all of the wires and the brake line got tangles and broke. Nothing that a good solder job and shrink tube can't fix. However I wanted to ask based on a 20" wheel, the regen braking is really harsh. It literally feels like smashing on the brakes! I don't have the usb cable but I thought that cycle analyst could be programmed to control that, no? Your helpful suggestions is always appreciated!

Rode into work this morning and loved it. Take a look at my max speed!!!!
Obviously an error cause I would have remembered holding on to dear life if it did happen.  :o

I have also took a picture of my ride. It is a foldable that tucks neatly under the desk it is leaning on. Incredible bike and now that it has gone "nuclear", it is an awesome machine.

I want to thank Alan for help when I was at my wits end and Gary for testing it and confirming that I am not a complete idiot.

« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 01:00:30 PM by Ag3n7 »

Offline Bikemad

  • Global Moderator
  • Professor
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,508
Re: Black Magic stuck
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2014, 05:59:42 PM »
It's good to hear that you've got it sorted.

Still trying to figure out how to program the cycle analyst v2 but that can wait.

If I were you, I'd make that your first priority so that you can tame that supersonic speed machine to keep it street legal. ;D

However I wanted to ask based on a 20" wheel, the regen braking is really harsh. It literally feels like smashing on the brakes! I don't have the usb cable but I thought that cycle analyst could be programmed to control that, no?

Unfortunately, the Cycle Analyst cannot be used to reduce the regenerative braking force and you will need to use a USB cable to alter it to suit your personal preference.
Is there anyone near to you that may have a programming lead for the external controller that you could visit to quickly adjust the regen setting?
I'd offer to help but it would be a long way for you to travel. ;)

I hope your bike doesn't live up to its name as it could be very dangerous if it folded like paper.

Alan
 




Offline Ag3n7

  • Confirmed
  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: Black Magic stuck
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2014, 11:33:48 AM »
Hey Alan,
Thanks for your response.
Quote
I'd offer to help but it would be a long way for you to travel. ;)

Hmmm...I think I would need ALOT of battery to get to where you are and take 2 days to charge them back up for my way back. TEMPTING! ::)

Thanks again for all you help. Will make Cycle Analyst 101 a priority!
Take care.

Winston