Sun Traditional Trike - Recommendations for Steep Hill Climbs?

[Tommycat]

52 volts on a 48 volt throttle/LED display is skewed as you mention. But just in terms of the battery indicator and not the throttle, or specifically it's hall sensor operation. As the throttle uses the 5 vdc regulated power from the controller for operation which is not effected by the slightly higher voltage.

Got into this a bit here...

https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/builds/ebike-building-directions/48457-1st-build-e-bike-rider-magic-pie-v5-rear-bottle-batt-52v-11-5ah-huffy-parkside?p=58677#post58677

Adding a resistor to the power input to the LED display works O.K. But bottom line for me is that a regular voltage meter measuring the battery output works best. A product called a Cycle Analyst 3 would be the ultimate in this regard.
The displays battery "bars" are also off, but I haven't paid attention to how much...    Although the watt readings seem close. (BAC-601 type) Speed and distance are determined by other parameters.

Wanted to add a thought about the PAS (that I don't use yet) is that it seems that the more magnets the sensor's wheel has, the better. I'm looking at a 24 magnet, 2 hall sensor, combined sensors and magnet enclosed in one assembly if I decide to give it a try.

Regards,
T.C.

[Zaphod2019]

Thank You for the reply, Tommy

52 volts on a 48 volt throttle/LED display is skewed as you mention. But just in terms of the battery indicator and not the throttle, or specifically it's hall sensor operation. As the throttle uses the 5 vdc regulated power from the controller for operation which is not effected by the slightly higher voltage.

Okay, that eases my mind a bit - Won't have to worry about the throttle

Got into this a bit here...

https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/builds/ebike-building-directions/48457-1st-build-e-bike-rider-magic-pie-v5-rear-bottle-batt-52v-11-5ah-huffy-parkside?p=58677#post58677

Well... I could follow about 50% of that...
I'm "Technically-Minded," but mostly about computers - It's been years since I dabbled in electronics and nowadays try to steer clear of that field

Quite envious of your skills in putting together the handlebar box with the displays and starter, though - That really looks great!

Adding a resistor to the power input to the LED display works O.K. But bottom line for me is that a regular voltage meter measuring the battery output works best. A product called a Cycle Analyst 3 would be the ultimate in this regard.
The displays battery "bars" are also off, but I haven't paid attention to how much...    Although the watt readings seem close. (BAC-601 type) Speed and distance are determined by other parameters.

I've looked at the Cycle Analyst (watched many YouTube videos where folks are using one), but am not sure that my style of riding or technical expertise would warrant one.  Maybe later on...

Wanted to add a thought about the PAS (that I don't use yet) is that it seems that the more magnets the sensor's wheel has, the better. I'm looking at a 24 magnet, 2 hall sensor, combined sensors and magnet enclosed in one assembly if I decide to give it a try.

Yes, I figured that more magnets would make for a more precise feel to the assistance levels, but I didn't know there were after-market sensors available.  Could you provide a link to the one you're considering?

Thanks again

--Zaphod

[Tommycat]

Yes, I figured that more magnets would make for a more precise feel to the assistance levels, but I didn't know there were after-market sensors available.  Could you provide a link to the one you're considering?

https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/torque-sensors/pas-24p.html#


But I need help understanding the benefits of it, and how exactly it operates? Not in the electrical/mechanical sense... but the actual human inter-action. Sure, there are countries that mandate it, where you HAVE to pedal. But isn't a throttle that has been set to cruise at a certain speed (infinite levels)doing the same thing?  Where you can pedal right with the pace, or a little bit ahead working a little harder, or a little bit behind (faux pedaling) just to keep the muscles moving. You just keep moving if you stop pedaling. Is this how levels of PAS work, except for the loss of power when you stop pedaling? And of course the automatic start up when you resume pedaling.

Now a torque sensor I can really see if I understand correctly. As the harder you pedal the more power is eased on. With the opposite also true. Keeping you motoring at the same pedal effort under differing terrains. But I don't think the Pie supports this.

The Pie's PAS from what I've read sounds like it could use improvement. The CA3 is also great for programming PAS levels and throttle response from what I read. But like you, I feel it might be a little over kill. Perhaps some day.

[Zaphod2019]

Yes, I figured that more magnets would make for a more precise feel to the assistance levels, but I didn't know there were after-market sensors available.  Could you provide a link to the one you're considering?

https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/torque-sensors/pas-24p.html#

Thank You for the link
Looks interesting, and the price is certainly right.
Looking at the "...for bikes with square taper cranks" part, I think I'd not be able to use it, as this trike has the evil one-piece crankset

But I need help understanding the benefits of it, and how exactly it operates? Not in the electrical/mechanical sense... but the actual human inter-action. Sure, there are countries that mandate it, where you HAVE to pedal. But isn't a throttle that has been set to cruise at a certain speed (infinite levels)doing the same thing?  Where you can pedal right with the pace, or a little bit ahead working a little harder, or a little bit behind (faux pedaling) just to keep the muscles moving. You just keep moving if you stop pedaling. Is this how levels of PAS work, except for the loss of power when you stop pedaling? And of course the automatic start up when you resume pedaling.

From what I understand, yes, that's the way the PAS works. I see a PAS as a means to maintain a level of exercise while still enjoying the benefits of the electric motor.  Sure, you could do just about the same using the cruise control, but it would seem to require that 'extra step' of activating the cruise.
(Zaphod sez, sounding like he knows what he's talking about, having never seen or used any of these gadgets... )

Now a torque sensor I can really see if I understand correctly. As the harder you pedal the more power is eased on. With the opposite also true. Keeping you motoring at the same pedal effort under differing terrains. But I don't think the Pie supports this.

Yes, a torque sensor is a whole 'nuther animal - one that I personally don't see myself ever needing/using.  My motivation for getting an electric motor is because of my physical limitations in pedaling, so...

The Pie's PAS from what I've read sounds like it could use improvement.

Hmm... Wait a sec, I just went back and re-read the into on GM's PAS: "The GM pedelec only sences (sic) if you are pedaling. If you pedel (sic) it goes full throttle." "...you could use this pedelec with a Cycle Analyst to controll (sic) of the power when pedelling (sic)."

I was under the impression that if I set the pedal assist level in either the display or with the Bluetooth dongle through my phone, that would determine how much assist was applied when I pedaled, but from the sound of the above, it's just full throttle / no throttle.

Gary, can you shed any light on this? (and maybe correct the spelling on the webpage? )

--Zaphod

[Tommycat]

(Zaphod sez, sounding like he knows what he's talking about, having never seen or used any of these gadgets... )

LOL... that's the way I feel sometimes.


Some extra light reading.   

https://www.ebikes.ca/learn/pedal-assist.html

[GM Canada]

Hello again 

The pedelec information you are reading is dated. It was written before we had a smart display. this is more recent.

"There are two ways to do the pedelec. 

If you have a Smart Pie 5, Magic Pie 5, Black Pie 5 or Magic Pie Edge kit with the internal Vector controller you can use PAS

PAS Sensor:
You can add a Smart Display and a pedelec ring or a Bluetooth device (for Android 4.4 and up) and a pedelec ring. This will give you 5 different power assist settings. This system has no idea how hard you are pedalling it only detects you are spinning the pedals. This is the most common system used by most Ebikes.

Any kits we have including those listed above can use a Cycle Analyst V3 for a PAS or true torque sensing pedelec.

PAS Sensor:
You can add a Cycle Analyst V3 and a CA3 pedelec ring. This will give you 3 different power assist settings. The advantage of this is you can completely edit and set the assist levels. Still, this system has no idea how hard you are pedalling it only detects you are spinning the pedals.
Torque Sensor:
You can add a Cycle Analyst V3 with a torque sensor in the bottom bracket. This system detects how hard you are pushing on the pedals and gives a proportional assist. The harder you push on the pedals the more assist it provides. You can create 3 profiles with the Cycle Analyst system. For example, I have on a few of my Ebikes one setting for the pathways with a maximum assisted speed of 15 km/h and peddling is required to make the motor go. A second setting where it is 32 km/h maximum assisted speed and peddling are optional for the street and a third setting for all-out power for hill climbing in off-road situations. You can make these profiles anything you like"

For reference
https://www.goldenmotor.ca/FAQ/questions.php?questionid=167

Gary

[Zaphod2019]

(Zaphod sez, sounding like he knows what he's talking about, having never seen or used any of these gadgets... )

LOL... that's the way I feel sometimes.


Some extra light reading.   

https://www.ebikes.ca/learn/pedal-assist.html

Sorry for the lengthy delay in replying, but I've been in the hospital...

Yep, heh heh - That was some 'light' reading

After taking (some of) that in, and also doing some more digging around with our friend, Google, I'm utterly perplexed - Everything I see points to a three-piece crankset with an 'axle' or 'spindle' upon which to fit the magnet ring.  My one-piece (Ashtabula?) crankset is looking like it's going to be a problem...
I see there are two-piece, snap-together magnet rings that might work, but I cannot find any pictures or videos of anyone using one on a one-piece crank like I have, so I can't be sure.
https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/torque-sensors/pas-12p.html

Two questions on this point (perhaps not specifically to you, Tommy, but to Gary, or anyone reading the thread):

1. Would the connector on the above-referenced PAS be compatible with the Black Pie kit? (from the picture on GM's web site, it looks like their PAS has a different connector)

2. I see 'This PAS Sensor Uses the Cycle Analyst 10V Standard', and seem to remember Gary saying something about a 5V signal - Problems?

And, with about a week remaining before ordering everything, I've just now thought to ask the question, are there going to be issues with connectors in the kit?  My soldering skills are from the 1980's (and weren't very good even back then!), and I don't even own an iron anymore - Am I going to run into problems in this area?

Thanks for all the help, guys

--Zaphod

[Zaphod2019]

Hello again 

The pedelec information you are reading is dated. It was written before we had a smart display. this is more recent...

Thank You for the updated information, Gary

Please see my few questions above, in response to Tommycat.

Only about a week to go! 

--Zaphod

[Tommycat]

1. Would the connector on the above-referenced PAS be compatible with the Black Pie kit? (from the picture on GM's web site, it looks like their PAS has a different connector)

2. I see 'This PAS Sensor Uses the Cycle Analyst 10V Standard', and seem to remember Gary saying something about a 5V signal - Problems?

#2 first...  Digging deeper into the specs it states that it works on 5 to 10 vdc voltage... So that shouldn't be an issue. I like the 12 magnets.   

#1.  I don't know what Gary has for connectors on his kits. Perhaps he would match it for you.  But until the industry locks in standardized specifications I'd be prepared to at the least be able to butt crimp some wiring, (heat shrink tubing is great) or change to matching connectors. My kit doesn't even have a connector on the PAS wires. Just dead ended wires. 

But if they do match, I'd highly recommend going out and buying a lottery ticket immediately! 

Welcome back,
T.C.

[Zaphod2019]

1. Would the connector on the above-referenced PAS be compatible with the Black Pie kit? (from the picture on GM's web site, it looks like their PAS has a different connector)

2. I see 'This PAS Sensor Uses the Cycle Analyst 10V Standard', and seem to remember Gary saying something about a 5V signal - Problems?

#2 first...  Digging deeper into the specs it states that it works on 5 to 10 vdc voltage... So that shouldn't be an issue. I like the 12 magnets.   

Well, that at least eases my mind.
Yes, I think that 12 magnets would be enough. The 24 in that one you linked to would be super responsive, but looking at the spacing of the 12 seems like you would only have perhaps a 1/8 crank rotation before it kicked in, and that should be good enough

#1.  I don't know what Gary has for connectors on his kits. Perhaps he would match it for you.  But until the industry locks in standardized specifications I'd be prepared to at the least be able to butt crimp some wiring, (heat shrink tubing is great) or change to matching connectors. My kit doesn't even have a connector on the PAS wires. Just dead ended wires. 

Hmm...  I would just have expected that everything from GM in the line would be modular and fit together.
(maybe that's what I get for thinking, huh?)

Welcome back

Why Thank You 

[GM Canada]

Any words on the 52V packs and the throttle and (Bluetooth) display?  I've read that 52V might cause the throttle to either stop working or 'misbehave,' giving you over-powerful spurts at times, and also that the higher voltage messes up the accuracy of the display (speed, range, battery percentage display).

--Zaphod

Not sure how the 52v pack would cause issues when the lifepo4 packs we have been using all along have a 1v higher nominal voltage then the 52v packs.

Gary