Author Topic: MPIII cuts out when loaded  (Read 10490 times)

Offline Nmart

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MPIII cuts out when loaded
« on: June 02, 2018, 10:34:58 PM »
Magic Pie V3 rear wheel mount on 26" wheel. Installed August 2017 and used for 3 months to commute a few times a week. Used this year about 4 times. Battery pack is home-made 48 volt lithium ion 10Ah with chinese BMS from eBay. Worked fine to get me the 8 miles to work in the morning. I charged the battery at work and then when I started home, it cut out after one second. When it cuts out, the lights on the throttle all go out and then slowly return but it won't power the wheel. The motor just makes a rumbling sound. If I cycle the power to the motor quickly, the problem stays. If I let it rest powered down for 5 seconds, it will power the wheel fine if no load is applied. No load, no throttle voltage is at 53.8 volts fully charged. Full throttle with no load (bike suspended) goes to 53.5 volts. I apply a load with the brake until it cuts out and the voltage goes down to 52.5 volts before it cuts out. Any ideas?

Offline Bikemad

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Re: MPIII cuts out when loaded
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2018, 12:02:18 AM »
Hi andto the forum.

As "the lights on the throttle all go out", it sounds like a BMS or battery connection problem, as the battery power is being disconnected from the controller under load.

A battery voltage drop of just 1V under load should not cause the BMS to cut the power (unless the BMS has a very low maximum current rating).

Check all your connections to the BMS (including each of the balance leads) to see if it is due to a poor connection.
If all the connections are good, it will probably be the BMS itself that has failed.

If your BMS is not rated for at least 25 Amps, it may have been overloaded by the current being drawn by the Magic Pie running at full power. Check out this post for some useful information.

Alan
 
« Last Edit: June 03, 2018, 12:06:21 AM by Bikemad »

Offline Nmart

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Re: MPIII cuts out when loaded
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2018, 09:34:04 PM »
I installed a new battery management system but the problem seems to be the same. I've posted a video on youtube (https://youtu.be/qzgpSYgV-gw) that might show the symptoms better.

Here's the battery management system I've been using. It's been working fine for a few months.
Ebay battery management system: 13S-48V-Li-ion-Lithium-Cell-25A-18650-Battery-Protection-PCB-Board-w-Balance
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 11:07:07 PM by Bikemad »

Offline Bikemad

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Re: MPIII cuts out when loaded
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2018, 11:27:25 PM »
If your BMS is not rated for at least 25 Amps, it may have been overloaded by the current being drawn by the Magic Pie running at full power.
That BMS is only rated for 20 Amps but the Magic Pie can draw up to 30 Amps under load.

I would say that the BMS is cutting the power because excessive current (more than 20 Amps) is being drawn by the motor.

Try setting the maximum battery current to 18 Amps on the controller using the USB programming cable and software to see if it still cuts out.

If it still cuts out with a maximum current limited to 18 Amps, I suspect that the 20 Amp BMS may have been damaged.

This 48V 13S 35A Battery Management System should be suitable for a Magic Pie.

Alan
 

Offline Nmart

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Re: MPIII cuts out when loaded
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2018, 10:36:02 PM »
Installed the new 35A BMS and things were great. I rode it around for 10 minutes and then it shut down. I reset the power and it rode for 20 seconds and shut down again. Now after I reset the power, it shuts down right after I apply a load like the 20A unit was doing. I guess this kind of fits with the whole story since the 20A BMS worked great for 2 months. It's as if something has been steadily degrading with usage and drawing more and more current.

Offline Bikemad

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Re: MPIII cuts out when loaded
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2018, 09:20:12 AM »
Hi Nathan,

As the new BMS is rated for 35A continuous, it is unlikely to be excessive current that is now causing the BMS to cut the power.

Other reasons for the BMS cutting the power include the following:
  • Faulty, weak, or very unbalanced cells
  • A poor connection within a group of paralleled cells
  • A poor/disconnected balance lead connection
  • A poor power lead connection on the battery side of the BMS
What cells did you use for your battery?
Were they all new cells of the same make and type from the same supplier, or did you use a variety of different cells from old laptop batteries etc.?

I think you need to try and check the voltages of the individual cells (paralleled groups) to see if you can locate the cause.



Ideally, you should check the cell voltages while the battery is under load, as this is when the difference between the cell group voltages will be more obvious.

Alan
 

Offline Nmart

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Re: MPIII cuts out when loaded
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2018, 06:10:19 PM »
I used light green unbranded cells from a reputable medical company. All unused but salvaged from medical equipment. They all have the same bar code of 9D10531259.

Maybe group number 4 has a problem? It's slightly lower.

Under load (full throttle but suspended off of pavement)
  • 4.1
  • 4.1
  • 4.12
  • 4.07
  • 4.12
  • 4.12
  • 4.1
  • 4.12
  • 4.12
  • 4.09
  • 4.09
  • 4.06
  • 4.09

no load
  • 4.14
  • 4.15
  • 4.18
  • 4.08
  • 4.15
  • 4.16
  • 4.14
  • 4.16
  • 4.15
  • 4.13
  • 4.12
  • 4.10
  • 4.12

Offline MrFred

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Re: MPIII cuts out when loaded
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2018, 01:55:07 PM »

Under load (full throttle but suspended off of pavement)

Unfortunately, this do not put much of a load on the battery. Not much current is drawn when there is little resistance with the wheel off the ground. I was going to do a test once (but never had to) and was considering:
 - Temporarily disconnecting the brake cutoff switch for the wheel with the motor
 - Partially applying the brakes as I turned the throttle to generate a "load".

Not sure if that would have worked and there may be other methods as well.

Offline Nmart

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Re: MPIII cuts out when loaded
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2018, 09:27:59 PM »
Okay, I added a load. I hooked up a permanent magnet DC motor from a treadmill and ran some light bulbs. The total voltage went down to 52.65. See battery numbers below. Considering that it cuts out when loaded to 52.5, I'd think that would be a good load. If the battery is holding 52.5 volts before it quits, how could the battery be the problem? I'd expect to see the battery get lower voltage than that if it was the problem.
 
  • 4.05
  • 4.04
  • 4.06
  • 4.01
  • 4.08
  • 4.06
  • 4.06
  • 4.08
  • 4.08
  • 4.03
  • 4.04
  • 4.02
  • 4.04

Offline Tommycat

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Re: MPIII cuts out when loaded
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2018, 10:55:28 PM »
If the battery is holding 52.5 volts before it quits, how could the battery be the problem? I'd expect to see the battery get lower voltage than that if it was the problem.
 


I believe that the paralleled group of sagging cell(s) in series with the rest would be somewhat hidden in the total battery output. But it cannot hide from the Battery Managment System! :)

Did you continue with your load test until battery shut down? ( 52.5 vdc )When, if you do have a weak group would have to show itself. But if it continues running would point in another direction...

Any amperage draw readings? watts?



See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub E-Bike build  HERE.

Offline Bikemad

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Re: MPIII cuts out when loaded
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2018, 12:49:41 PM »
Here is a comparison of 2 individual cells in a 5 cell 5Ah 20C LiPo pack being used on my electric strimmer, therefore they were both subjected the exact same load:



The the blue cell is still performing reasonably well for its age but the red cell is much weaker and the additional voltage drop under load is very noticeable.

The voltage difference at the beginning of the test was ~0.02V, and at the end of the test under no load it was ~0.05V.

Under light load, the difference between the two cells was ~0.05V, but at peak load, the difference was over 0.55V.

If we look at your results, it appears that your cells are not under sufficient load to produce anywhere near the 0.45 and 1.03V voltage drop that my cells experienced under heavy load:



If you haven't reduced the Maximum Current setting of the Magic Pie, it will typically draw ~25 Amps of current (~1,300 Watts @ 52.5V) under heavy load at low speed.

If your cutting out problem only occurs under heavy load, it is likely that the test loads you are using are not enough to reproduce the problem.

I suspect that if you left your motor running with just your treadmill motor and bulbs as a load, it would continue to discharge the battery well below 50V before it would cut out.

As your cutting out problem is obviously related to load, either something is unable to supply the required current (e.g. weak cells or a poor connection on one or more of their interconnecting links) or possibly a problem with a balance lead connection (or the BMS unit itself).

Alan
 

Offline Nmart

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Re: MPIII cuts out when loaded
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2019, 03:34:25 PM »
I'm back and I haven't made any progress. Riding season is here and I need to figure this out. I was thinking of finding someone local who may be able to lend a 48 volt battery pack and see if it has any problems. The other thought I had was to get a better bms that would report WHY it tripped out.

Offline Nmart

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Re: MPIII cuts out when loaded
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2021, 05:40:18 PM »
Problem solved! I found some connections were open on the battery pack. Then I used my bluetooth BMS to watch each bank. I did have to change out the bank of batteries on the positive connection since it was hitting an undervoltage limit. Anyone else see that bank go out first? The bluetooth BMS has been essential to troubleshooting since the problems only show while under full load.

Offline Bikemad

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Re: MPIII cuts out when loaded
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2021, 06:06:40 PM »
Good to know that you've been able to locate and replace the problem cell group.

As you will now understand, it is so much easier to locate the problem when you can actually see what is happening under load.

Alan