Advise for my 5kw 72v engine transport motorcycle conversion.. [updated]

[Jop Amsterdam]

Hi al,

thank you for having me,
I'm jop from the loverly city of Amsterdam and due to the environmental zone we now have here in town (and because its just cool as heck) I'm converting my vintage 2-stroke 50cc Gazelle Apollo motor-carrier (3 wheeled transport motorcycle, google "bakbrommer" for pictures) into an all electric vehicle.

I am nearly done, I chose the 72v 5kw GM with sinwave controller and 6 105Ah AGM batteries. But now I obviously need to program my controller.
I already calculated my allowed 45km/h top speed back to RPM but I was wondering if you people can advise me on ball park estimates of the other settings I should program in so that I can get from the starting line at a decent speed but not so fast I blow up my back wheel or chain.

My estimate is that my vehicle all done inc batteries will be about 300kg excluding my 90kg as a driver.

Also any other tips and tricks are very welcome, I have my MOD check upcoming Friday.

thank you in advance and obviously I will post an extensive topic with all my build and result pictures as soon as i'm allowed too.

cheers,
jop

[Bikemad]

Hi andto the forum.

You didn't mention which sinewave controller you have, so I'm guessing it's the VEC-200 or VEC-300?

There have been a couple of posts recently on the forum regarding poor torque on initial take off, but you will just have to try your particular setup and see how it performs.

You will probably need to set the current settings quite high to get that amount of weight moving from a standstill and may even need as much as 10:1 gear ratio between the motor and the rear wheel to multiply the available torque from the motor.

Let us know how it performs when you are able to test it, and it might be helpful if you can post some screenshots of your existing settings, along with some further details (Outer tyre diameter and the overall gear ratio that you are currently using etc.).

Fortunately, you don't need to worry about climbing steep hills in Amsterdam. 

Alan
 

[Jop Amsterdam]

thanx for the welcome and reply,

VEC 300 indeed, (if my "chain vs bridge" will let me) my gears wil be 11 X 70, otherwise it will be 13 X 70.
My rear wheel has a 195.6 cm circumference

Sadly my new gears are not in yet so its going to be tight finishing everything it in time for my MOD check this Friday, but maybe my old gasoline gears set up of 15 X 47 will be enough if needed to make it road legal without frying my fuse, the MOD station is just around the corner from my workshop so if needed I can even walk until the gate.

Hooked up the last cables this afternoon, going to have a crack at programming my controller tomorrow.
But already saw that it now gives a "HALL Protection" error, so yeah, i'm sure i'll be back here with questions.

[Jop Amsterdam]

Here some pics from when I finished restoring my frame, my old gasoline 50cc 2-stroke set up and my heavy as hell battery pack (if I ever win the lottery I will def switch to LiPo but for now that's is sadly not really feasible if I want to keep a decent range)

[Bikemad]

I think your gearing is going to be too high:

1) 11x70 = 6.36:1 ratio with a theoretical speed of 83km/h @ 4500rpm.
    The motor would need to be limited to 2440rpm to restrict it to 45km/h.

2) 13x70 = 5.385:1 ratio theoretical speed of 98km/h @ 4500rpm.
    The motor would need to be limited to 2066rpm to restrict it to 45km/h.

3) 15x47 = 3.13:1 ratio theoretical speed of 168km/h @ 4500rpm.
    The motor would need to be limited to 1250rpm to restrict it to 45km/h.

My previously mentioned 10:1 gear ratio would still have a theoretical speed of 53km/h @ 4500rpm.
    The motor would need to be limited to 3820rpm to restrict it to 45km/h.

I think you may have problems trying to pull away with all 3 of the options you have listed. 

I think a much larger rear sprocket and/or a smaller rear wheel may be required. 

Alan
 

[Jop Amsterdam]

i was afraid of that, not sure if I will be able to find a larger rear sprocket than 70t without having it made to order.

and a smaller rear wheel would be a rather annoying self-defeat as I decided to go for a more expensive mid motor instead of a hub motor out of mostly aesthetic choices.

that said, when I move out of town next year i'm probably not going to keep it limited at 45 km/h

i guess I could try fitting in a 1/3 gear box in there somewhere at some point but damn, I have already gone so far over budget and available time for this project... 

[Jop Amsterdam]

decided to move my MOD appointment with a month, feels like a bit of a defeat but will get there in the end, found a really nice gear reductor, will be another heavy hit on my bank account but I think it will be worth it; https://www.apexdyna.nl/nl/producten/ae-serie-rvs-aseptische-tandwielkast/

the laptop that I borrowed and my controller really didnt agree with each other, hopefully the newer notebook I got will be better and sort me out tomorrow.

i'll be doubtless back with more questions though,

thank you again.
j

[Jop Amsterdam]

Update;

Still need to get a laptop that decides it wants to communicate with my controller (curse you bill gates!!  ) but any pointers already considering the “abnormal hall input” that my LED is blinking?

Seems my chain wont allow me to use a 11 front sprocket anyway so I guess I better start saving for that planetary reductor.

Quite a runaway project financially but its still going to be worth it if I get it to run like I hope it will.

[Bikemad]

If you are getting 5 regular flashes, check that the Hall sensors and the Phase wires are all connected properly to the correct terminals.

Alan
 

[Jop Amsterdam]

Okay, this is getting weird, I keep having the 5 “hall input abnormal” flashes, unless I switch the red and black of the hall sensor cable, then it runs, but only backwards and if I don't touch the throttle.

The good news is that it does something I guess and that I got the controller programmer successfully  hooked up.

Anything I need to do there in the settings except put it on 72v, enable manual cruise control and limit my top RPM?

Thanks in advance again!
J.

[Bikemad]

Something doesn't sound quite right there, and reversing the polarity of the +5V supply to the Hall sensors does not seem like a good idea to me. 

Make sure everything is wired as it should be and then check the voltages on the Hall sensors to ensure the red is 4.5~5V and the black is 0V in relation the the battery - (negative) terminal.

Then check the signal voltages on the yellow, green and blue hall sensor wires. The voltage on each of these wires should switch between 0V and 4~5V as the motor is rotated slowly.

I would also check the voltage on the three wires for the throttle, red is +5V and the black is 0V and the signal wire should be 0.8~1V with the throttle released, and over 3.25V at full throttle.

Also, check that you have the correct throttle type selected in the software (Hall or Potentiometer) to match your throttle.

Alan
 

[Jop Amsterdam]

There is def something weird going on, I assume the controller does not have its own battery so why the heck do I have 24.2 volts on the B+ even with my battery pack physically disconnected (inc the ground not touching anything?!?!!) ?
(And no its also not plugged into my laptop)

Completely out of my depth here...

[Bikemad]

I expect it is just a bit of residual voltage stored in the controller's capacitors. They will gradually self discharge over time, but if the battery supply has recently been disconnected, they may still contain some of the original voltage, which is probably what you are seeing on the voltmeter. 

If you place a resistance (e.g. an incandescent light bulb) across the controller's battery cables (while they are disconnected), it should discharge the capacitors completely.

Alan
 

[Jop Amsterdam]

thanx, though I was going crazy now, i'm beginning to suspect there is something wired wrong in my BAC-0111 Twist Throttle, I will measure the wires through tomorrow, do you know by any chance the color coding for that one already?
the shop I bought it from will be closed from tomorrow till next monday because of ascension day, otherwise I would start bothering them.

[Bikemad]

Most throttles use the black for ground (0V) and red for the +5V supply, but the wire used for the throttle signal wire is usually green or white.

Having said that, I have also seen some GM thumb throttles using green, black and white wires for the Hall sensor connections. 

Alan