Author Topic: Review of the Newest MP4  (Read 29841 times)

Offline Morgen 3Eman

  • Confirmed
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 620
Re: Review of the Newest MP4
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2014, 12:26:43 AM »
Hi Lawrence,

I have no idea how laminations effect motor speed and torque.  How about making me smarter by explaining it, or pointing us to some web site that might explain it.

TTFN,
Dennis
(the inquisitive old fart)

Offline Supchrgamx

  • Confirmed
  • Magic Undergrad
  • ***
  • Posts: 68
Re: Review of the Newest MP4
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2014, 06:00:11 AM »
trouble is I read to much
this may or may not be true , but this is what I have read

hi kv or low turn count is faster

low kv  or high turn count  is slower but more torque
this is the motor that you will want for a y -delta motor

lower pole count is faster

thinner laminates are quicker
other motors use 50mm 35mm and 20mm

more amp = more torque
more voltage = higher speeds

y-delta has 2 problems
if you loose 1 phase of three in delta, the wheel locks up
when you are in y the winding are in series , you have a break any where, it kills the power
delta you have 2 winding in series paralleled with the third winding, if you loose 1 winding the power can still go through the other wjnding
so if your controller screws up or you cook a winding in delta,  at high speed ,watch out
but you say, I wont put enough current through my motor to cook my controller or motor to be safe
when you go delta  the current increases by 1.73 so your controller and bms has to be able to handle that extra current
but you say , no problem I will increase my bms and controller to handle the extra current
so you have done all of this and are ready to try this y delta thing
so lets say that when you are in y ,your top speed is 50 kmh
you switch it to delta, your current increases by 1.73 and your speed should increase  by 1.73 ,but because of wind drag you only increase by 1.5 to a speed  of 75 kmh
but your controller doesn't like switching winding under full load, no problem , when you switch you now have a throttle kill that interrupts the throttle for 40 milliseconds to allow the relays to switch and then allows full power again
so you have taken care of all of this and think , what could go wrong
 so now you have a controller that will handle higher current for the delta
back to my story
so you are flying down the road  at 75 kmh thinking this is great
but at some point you need to slow down, so you release the throttle  and you coast abit
and then ,not even thinking you switch back to y
if you do it below 50 kmh every thing is fine and you live to do it again
if you do it above 50 kmh the back emf created will fry your fets and over the handle bars you go
so now you need something to prevent it switching back to y until you reach the lower speed or
you increase the controller or fets to handle the higher voltage
so if you have a higher current and voltage controller you might as well feed it with more battery and leave it in y

correct me if im wrong

Laurence





Offline Morgen 3Eman

  • Confirmed
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 620
Re: Review of the Newest MP4
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2014, 06:38:16 AM »
Hi Laurance,

I want to apologize in advance for being a terrible person.  I am not questioning you to hurt your feelings, but to learn.  An Aussie called me a bully a while back, and wanted me kicked off the board, and I am still stigmatized by that. 

So…….

I agree with much of what you say, but the question I had was : how do laminations affect motor torque and speed?  You say thinner laminations  are quicker, and that other motors use 50mm 35 mm and 20 mm:  So Why?  Why are they quicker? and what does GM use?  (PS: 20 mm laminations are way thicker than I have ever seen.  I have never measured them, but I would guess most of the motor laminations I have seen were a vey few tenths of mm thick)

That being said, regarding loss of a winding; in my experience, it won't matter which way the motor is connected: you are screwed.

TTFN,
Dennis

 

Offline Bikemad

  • Global Moderator
  • Professor
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,553
Re: Review of the Newest MP4
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2014, 12:33:35 PM »
Dennis, I think Laurence was talking about the overall thickness of the stator core, not the individual thickness of each steel laminate.



The stator core is constructed from laminated steel plates instead of a single solid piece of steel (~35 layers on the Magic Pie), as it greatly increases the stator's efficiency by increasing the resistance and surface area which reduces unwanted heat generation and loss of energy by reducing the induced eddy currents within the steel core.

Although the thickness of the individual laminations will have an effect on the efficiency of the motor, I'm not really sure how much it would actually affect the speed of the motor (rpm/volt).

If you use the same gauge copper wire and the same number of turns on each coil, the total length of the windings will be much less on a thinner stator than it would be on a wide stator, therefore the resistance of the windings will also be lower on the thinner stator allowing more current to flow from the same applied voltage.
Shorter windings and higher current usually results in a higher motor speed, which is basically why the speed increases when you switch from star to Delta:



Alan
 
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 08:53:28 PM by Bikemad »

Offline Morgen 3Eman

  • Confirmed
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 620
Re: Review of the Newest MP4
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2014, 12:49:43 AM »
Hi Folks,

I understood how the wiring affects speed and torque, and how lamination thickness affects I(2)R loss, but didn't twig to the core thickness affecting the winding length and turns and thus the speed.   Thanks. 

By the way, electronically switching the connections  (VS relay) is a bit more complex than I first thought.  I didn't immediately consider the bidirectional circulating currents.  I must be getting too old to think.  I still think you have a great idea… Using Laurences number of 1.73, that is a nice ratio for a two speed tranny.

TTFN,
Dennis

Offline Morgen 3Eman

  • Confirmed
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 620
Re: Review of the Newest MP4
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2014, 12:53:10 AM »
Hi Folks,

It turns out the that old General Motors PowerGlide two speed automatics had speed ratios of 1.76 or 1.82!  I'm telling you this is a great idea.

Dennis

Offline Supchrgamx

  • Confirmed
  • Magic Undergrad
  • ***
  • Posts: 68
Re: Review of the Newest MP4
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2014, 07:40:01 AM »
bad eddie currents
no offence taken
just threw it all out there to see the response

Laurence

Offline Supchrgamx

  • Confirmed
  • Magic Undergrad
  • ***
  • Posts: 68
Re: Review of the Newest MP4
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2014, 06:48:37 PM »
not saying it  cant be done
I have built my stuff with existing components and just modify what out there  to make it work for me
simple and fast
some times it work better than expected and some times not so good
so if I had a r and d department I would build a controller that would shut down on the up shift for a second and then not let it shift back down until the motor reaches a safe speed and if it is a issue ,monitor all phases for balance and if a hazard rears its ugly head shut the controller down
some where I saw a diagram that they use 3 more fets to do the y delta switch on top of the 6 fets for just y
and that is a standard ac motor winding switch and that's what im use to
but
here comes the what if
the y has two winding in series and im ok with that
the delta has two winding in series paralleled with the third one
and that is standard for a ac motor ,but do you need to do this
why cant you switch one winding at a time in a delta  set and do not feed the winding in series anything
I don't know if the series winding in delta contribute any power to the motor or just add losses
welcome to the inside of my head
enlighten me with your smarts

Laurence

Offline Morgen 3Eman

  • Confirmed
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 620
Re: Review of the Newest MP4
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2014, 11:51:09 PM »
Hi Laurence

Your question about using only two windings beats the hell out of me!  But I do know you will have to do something with the third winding, as there will be a current induced in it.

TTFN,
Dennis

Offline Kauaikit

  • Confirmed
  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 15
Re: Review of the Newest MP4
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2014, 02:38:23 AM »
So…I asked what was changed from their newest MP4 offering to this High Speed California Special (HS CA SPL) MP4.1 version that I had special ordered and was told…"we changed the winding, and resistance and inductance of contoller".  That was it. :o

Is anyone curious what the performance was achieved with this one off HS MP4.1 compared to the standard MP4 hub?

Kit
S.CA USA

Offline Supchrgamx

  • Confirmed
  • Magic Undergrad
  • ***
  • Posts: 68
Re: Review of the Newest MP4
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2014, 04:59:38 AM »
sorry for hi jacking the thread
kit I would love to know
dennis they have one winding in y that's not used when the other two windings are run in series, why cant they not use two windings in delta and just do phase a -b-c

Offline Kauaikit

  • Confirmed
  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 15
Re: Review of the Newest MP4
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2014, 07:23:43 AM »
Ok….I'm only using 2 HK 18.5v/8ah Nano Tech batteries (50.4v/8ah). Way below the max levels allowed.

My level speed on this special order High Speed California Special MP4.1 (HS CA SPL MP4.1) is 32mph/51.2kph (195lbs), and on a slight downhill pedaling (46t-11t) I'm getting 37mph/59.2kph. And an average of 22.4mph/35.9kph for a 12 mile/19.2km ride!

WOW….this performance matches my Tidalforce bikes, though the MP4's don't have the same torque. Though I need a 16ah battery for the same 12mile/19.2km distance on the TF bikes.

I'm waiting on my 15s5p Samsung 25r battery pack to come from China…then I'm have a real top speed and distance from a 12.5ah battery pack that fits inside the original EVG ebike battery case!

I'll be working on the PAS setup to see if I can get it to work for me, though I tend to like the thumb throttle.

After the Xmas holidays, I'll be ordering 2/3 more of these HS MP4 "kits"….they work.

What are your speeds or performance numbers on your MP4's?


Offline Morgen 3Eman

  • Confirmed
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 620
Re: Review of the Newest MP4
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2014, 07:22:08 PM »
Hi Laurence,

The third Y winding is not energized  directly by current from the battery thru the H-switch, but the magnetic fields will induce a current into that coil.  There are diodes in the H-switch drivers that effectiively ground that end of the coil, while the other end is always connected to ground.  That keeps the voltage across the coil from going really, really high and damaging things. 

Does that make any sense?

TTFN,
Dennis

Offline Supchrgamx

  • Confirmed
  • Magic Undergrad
  • ***
  • Posts: 68
Re: Review of the Newest MP4
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2014, 03:25:23 AM »
oh now, we are going to add rules are we
h switch  ,you know ,its been 30 yrs since I've  done electronics
1 winding - motor , 2 windings generator , got it
flying diode or what ever you call it ,got it
I feel like your toying with me dennis
I don't want this to be this, didn't work out version


Offline Supchrgamx

  • Confirmed
  • Magic Undergrad
  • ***
  • Posts: 68
Re: Review of the Newest MP4
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2014, 03:46:32 AM »
hi Kit

300 lbs combined weight 15 ah @ 48v batt 58v charged I think
26 rim 235 tires I can do 48 kmh peddling and go 48km on one charge not peddling
and im pulling 16 amp to do it
I can ride for 6 hrs at 22kmh average but,  that's stop and go riding in the river valley
or at least I use to be able to, until 2 feet of snow
that would be awesome to be able to travel at town speed
we have pot holes in the road that would swallow a  bike

laurence