Will the Magic Pie III FRONT 16 inch motor work with this scooter?

[Chad Kaplan]

Hi, I am looking to upgrade my Emmo X brand scooter by adding a front motor.

I realize other companies may make a very similar model of this scooter, however... here is a link with some specs of my scooter. http://www.emmokingston.ca/thex.htm

I have 60volts worth of batteries on the scooter at the moment, and it is running at 60 volts, and has been for about a year with no problems.

I am looking to add the Magic Pie III 16 inch to replace my front wheel, and buy some batteries to hook up to it. I already know how to mount these extra batteries, and it is not the issue.

I am merely wondering if the 16 inch version of the Magic Pie III will fit this Emmo X model bike.

Maybe someone out there knows enough about this situation to offer me some helpful tips.

Also, would I be able to use a thumb throttle on the front engine, and mod my handlebars to keep my current twist throttle on my rear engine? Is there an easier way to do this?

Any help would be appreciated, as I love my bike, and the police in my area are VERY relaxed about ebikers and their ebike mods, as it is a small town. No harm no foul.

[Bikemad]

Hi andto the forum Chad.

Unfortunately it would not be very easy to fit the MPIII to those front forks for the following reasons:

• The axle fixings are totally different, the MPIII has a solid axle with machined flats to transmit the torque for power and regen and a retaining nut on each end, but the Emmo simply uses a long bolt which passes right through the forks and hub assembly which can be easily withdrawn to remove the complete wheel asembly:
  
• The Emmo is equipped with a drum brake, which cannot be used with the MPIII.
• There is no easy way of attaching a disc brake caliper to the Emmo's forks to suit the MPIII

I am not saying that it can't be done, it's just that it would require a lot of hard work involving some precise measurements, detailed component design and some fabrication using precision machining tools.

It might be easier to upgrade the rear motor and speed controller to produce a lot more power.

Alan
 

[Chad Kaplan]

Hi andto the forum Chad.

Unfortunately it would not be very easy to fit the MPIII to those front forks for the following reasons:

• The axle fixings are totally different, the MPIII has a solid axle with machined flats to transmit the torque for power and regen and a retaining nut on each end, but the Emmo simply uses a long bolt which passes right through the forks and hub assembly which can be easily withdrawn to remove the complete wheel asembly:
  
• The Emmo is equipped with a drum brake, which cannot be used with the MPIII.
• There is no easy way of attaching a disc brake caliper to the Emmo's forks to suit the MPIII

I am not saying that it can't be done, it's just that it would require a lot of hard work involving some precise measurements, detailed component design and some fabrication using precision machining tools.

It might be easier to upgrade the rear motor and speed controller to produce a lot more power.

Alan

Thanks for the reply.

I am glad I asked before buying the first item that I saw.

Do you have any suggestions to a rear motor that I can buy which should fit this bike I own?

My bike has a 60 volt battery setup currently.

Any specific product suggestions would help me out a lot. I am very good at putting things together once I acquire them, so that shouldn't be a problem at all. I have had to take this bike apart more than once for maintenance reasons, and it seemed fairly simple to me.

I just really want to beef it up, but not so sure what to buy.

Anyway, thanks again.

[Bikemad]

Erik used the MW16C rear wheel to convert his scooter and you can read about it here.

I don't know how your rear wheel is currently fitted but I suspect it will need a fair amount of modification to accept the MW16C and a disc brake.

Check out Gary's unboxing video to see what the MW16C motor looks like in real life.

Alan
 

[Chad Kaplan]

Thanks for the info and reply.

I watched the video and paid close attention to the parts etc.

I could easily fit this motor onto my bike in an afternoon and get it working.

Is there a controller that you recommend me to use?

Also, this motor you recommend is 16 inches right?

Oh... and it seems to be out of stock until the end of summer. ...


EDIT:

Will this controller worth with a 60 volt battery setup? http://www.goldenmotor.ca/products/BLDC-Motor-Controller-48v2000w.html

[GM Canada]

Thanks for the info and reply.

I watched the video and paid close attention to the parts etc.

I could easily fit this motor onto my bike in an afternoon and get it working.

Is there a controller that you recommend me to use?

Also, this motor you recommend is 16 inches right?

Oh... and it seems to be out of stock until the end of summer. ...


EDIT:

Will this controller worth with a 60 volt battery setup? http://www.goldenmotor.ca/products/BLDC-Motor-Controller-48v2000w.html

Thanks for pointing out the stock issue. When I place and order at best I can get it in 2 months from China. That is one month to prepare it and one month to get to my door. I have learned in the past it can actually take twice that long with delays shipping and at customs. So when I post expected shipping dates on out of stock Items I post them 4 months from when I placed my last sea order. That is why I posted august 30th as an expected shipping date. But this order will actually be at my door july 12th as its already at the rail yard near me. So I just updated alot of my expected shipping dates to July 16th.   

As for the controller. GM does not sell any that can handle greater then 59.9 volts. So a 48 volt battery is max. You will have to go with a 3rd party controller if you want a 60 volt battery. I'm sure someone here can steer you to what you need. I don't recommend item I don't sell as I have never tried any others, nor do I care too.

Gary

[Chad Kaplan]

Thanks for the reply, Gary.

I am still ironing out some issues before I order, as you can see.

I am trying to figure out if my current controller that is operating at 60 volts is compatible with this MW16C motor... I don't see why it wouldn't be.

I am still learning about how this all works, but I should be able to just switch out the engines for the MW16C without any other mods, right?

Anyway, one more question for the moment... do you think you will be in stock with MW16C for a few more weeks if I wait to order until I figure everything else out?

[GM Canada]

Hi Chad,

As Alan pointed out this would likely be a lot more difficult then you think.

It appears from your picture the wheel is placed in the forks and an axle is then pushed through ans secured. On hub motors the axle is permanently mounted in the motor. It can not just push out. So your forks would need to be modded or separated to mount the motor.

The next issue would be the axle shape of the axle. Your axle is likely round, hub motor axles are oval in shape. This prevents the axle for spinning in the dropouts..

The next issue would be the brake. It appears you have a drum brake. Not sure how that would work out. I'm not clear on what the brake is on the MW16.

Now about stock. When I was down to two mw16 I ordered six more. I sold those two and four more I have not received yet. So only two will be available. Now this is starting to sound like a sales pitch. This was not my intention. I only jumped in this thread to correct some miss-information on my website.

My conclusion is the same as Alan's. this would not be easy. Personally I would recommend not attempting it.

Gary

[Chad Kaplan]

Oh, I think there was a misunderstanding.

Alan advised replacing my rear engine would be a better idea, so that is what I decided  I am going to do.

I am just going to replace it with the MW16C.

It has the same parts to connect as my current rear engine, and I took the measurements yesterday and it will fit.

I have some stuff to figure out, then I will order the motor and brakes that I may need to mod to get to attach to the rear.

Worst case scenario I will do the mod over the winter and have it ready for next season if you're out of stock.

Thanks again for the reply.

[Bikemad]

I am trying to figure out if my current controller that is operating at 60 volts is compatible with this MW16C motor... I don't see why it wouldn't be.

Chad, although your existing controller might work with the MW16C (assuming it can cope with the lower resistance of the heavier duty phase wires and windings) the amount of current it could supply would probably be the same as your existing set-up, so the actual power produced by the motor is unlikely to be much different to what you already have.

To produce more power from the more powerful motor you are going to need a controller that can deliver a much higher current output.

If the standard 48V set-up is limited to 500 watts, the controller will only be allowing ~10 amps to be drawn from the battery.
Simply replacing a 10 amp controller with a 20 amp version should double the available power, provided the batteries could supply the required current and the phase wires and motor windings were also able to handle it without overheating.

This should theoretically produce ~960 watts of usable power from the 1.2kW (20A @ 60V) being supplied if your motor is ~80% efficient.

Alan
 

[Chad Kaplan]

Thanks again for the reply.

I just talked to the dealer who sold me my bike, and he told me that I should instead buy a 72 volt (or better) controller, and add another 12 volt battery if I want to get more power.

He also said my current controller is pretty weak... so that sort of verifies what you just told me about upgrading a controller.

My dealer also told me that my motor is capable of a lot more than 72 volts, but he said to try that out for a while... and if that doesn't make me happy, that I should then switch to using lithium batteries instead of lead acid, and that I would be dropping the weight of my bike drastically and gaining a huge performance increase.

Does goldenmotors.ca supply lithium batteries that I can use in a 72 volt setup? I think I will try doing that next season after I get a 72 volt controller this season to try out with my current lead acid setup.

Thanks again for all the attention you guys have been giving me. It has helped me learn a lot more about electric motor power etc.

Once I get my first upgrade done I am going to upload some video of the process etc. to help other people get started on this type of mod as well.

[GM Canada]

Hi Chad,

For 72 volts you put two 36 volt batteries in series. Similar to how you have your 12 volt SLA batteries in series. A few things to realize is you will also need a 72 volt charger and when you toss the SLA batteries DO NOT get sucked into buying lithium batteries. Make sure you get liFePO4. When dealers say lithium they are avoiding saying lithium manganese. I think I've said my opinion enough about lithium manganese in the forum in various threads. Just avoid them.

The performance increase the dealer is talking about is the fact that fully charged 48 SLA batteries are around 50 volts and fully charged lithium manganese is around 56 volts. That's 6 more volts and remember voltage is speed ah is distance. A 48 volt LiFePO4 battery is 58 volts so that is even a little more speed. Using these numbers to compare SLA to liFePO4, at 60 volts just add another 25 percent. Taking it from 60 to 72 add another 20 percent. 0f course all these numbers are just estimations and Alan will likely point out how wrong I am, but I'm just trying to say that buying another SLA battery and another SLA charger is money that could go toward better battery technology. Better to kill off the SLA batteries you have now then spend more money on them.

Another thing to consider is a dealer will always try to keep you as a customer and say thing you want to hear. That is completely understandable. In an open forum people have to be a little more forthcoming with information as everyone is watching. I try not to "hard sell" in any forum. Sure I post random adds sometimes of sales I am having but they are never pointed at an individual. I like to think I go the the forums to share what I have learned as I have covered a lot if ground when it comes to building an Ebike. Some people believe that and some don't. The one Ebike build that still eludes me is a recumbent trike. Some day

Gary

[Chad Kaplan]

Hi again, Gary.

Thanks for all the information.

I have learned a lot from you in a short period of time.

I will take the advice you are giving me, and I will save some more money and do a full LiFePO4 upgrade.

I am going to do the full LiFePO4 72 volt upgrade, which will probably happen for me next season (Canadian snow eh).

On another note...

By next season I will have a new frame for my ebike.

I am working on making a completely aluminium frame to hang my current chassis on.

It will weigh a lot less... and if all goes well, I will be able to transfer the moving parts, AND the LiFePO4 upgrade to the new frame all at the same time.

I think it should be quite a torque increase with all the weight of my steel frame taken off, the reduced weight of LiFePO4 vs SLA AND a beefier 72 volt controller which can draw a few more amps than my current controller.

It just sucks that it will be another 8 or so months before I am finished with all of this modding.

Oh well, I will start a new thread on this sometime in the fall when my new frame starts to take shape and I can post some progress pictures.

Thanks again Gary, and Alan.

You guys are great.

[MAGICPIE3FOCUSPOWER]

Yes but also be aware not every Lifepo4 is the same.
I have bought Headway lifepo4 cells from different sellers.
I can tell there are big differences bewteen these cells (benchmarked).

[Chad Kaplan]

Yes but also be aware not every Lifepo4 is the same.
I have bought Headway lifepo4 cells from different sellers.
I can tell there are big differences bewteen these cells (benchmarked).

Hmm... any suggestions on a retailer that would sell a good 72 volt custom setup?

I was looking at this: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/lifepo4-battery-packs-72v-45ah-with-60A-120A-BMS-and-6a-charger-for-scooter-free-shipping/904556395.html