Author Topic: Magic Pie I : New noise at low speed  (Read 13751 times)

Offline Avantgarder

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Magic Pie I : New noise at low speed
« on: July 02, 2013, 12:47:48 PM »
Hi All,

I have the all mighty Magic pie I for 2 years together with an external 1500w ecrazyman controller. The 2 are a real Gem for me.
Recently I hear these strange noises coming from the motor at very low speeds but not right from speed 0km. It starts from 5km/h and ends at 10km/h.  The bike is as fast as it used to be and there is no impact on performance nor on battery consumption.
My fear is that something is loose inside or there is an electric problem.
Here is a youtube video I took . The bad noise starts at 6 seconds and sounds as if I'm dragging a cardboard box ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C19SU8qC0G4&feature=youtu.be

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Magic Pie I : New noise at low speed
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2013, 11:58:25 AM »

I've just listened to the noise on your video and it's definitely not electrical!

It sounds to me as if the stator is touching against the magnets inside the hub, which will either be due to worn bearings or a failed stator casting.

You should be able easily check for bearing play by pushing the rim from side to side and looking for signs of movement near the axle, but I think the wheel will need to be removed and dismantled to replace worn bearings and/or inspect the stator spokes for signs of damage (cracks caused by metal fatigue).

Alan
 

Offline Avantgarder

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Re: Magic Pie I : New noise at low speed
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2013, 12:08:54 PM »
Bearing is rock solid. I think that if it was a bearing issue it would be even more noticeable at high speeds.
I don't want to rule out mechanical problems but Low speeds = High Amp which might suggest it's electrical.
Again...I'm open to all possibilities.

Offline Avantgarder

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Re: Magic Pie I : New noise at low speed
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2013, 12:28:12 PM »
During the weekend before I open up the motor I plan to disconnect the Hall sensors from the controller and measure their resistance while the wheel is turning. This will tell me if one of them is burnt. I just want to hear if somebody in the audience experienced such a noise and might save me the ordeal of opening the motor ...

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Magic Pie I : New noise at low speed
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2013, 03:46:38 PM »

High Amps = high magnetic force and greater distortion of the stator.
If the stator has cracked, the torsional force will cause the weakened stator to flex and touch against the magnets.

Hall sensors should be checked with the controller connected so the output voltage of each sensor can be measured with a voltmeter. Slow movement of the wheel should cause the signal voltage to repeatedly change between 0 and 5V.

Checking the resistance of the hall sensors will not prove whether they are working or not.

If your controller supports sensorless operation you could try disconnecting the hall sensors and running the motor in sensorless mode, but I don't think it would make any difference as the noise I was listening to was mechanical, not electrical.

If it's a cracked stator, I strongly advise against continued use as I think the noise would progressively get worse until the stator eventually fails completely, ripping out the wiring and possibly damaging the controller at the same time! :o

Alan
 

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Re: Magic Pie I : New noise at low speed
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2013, 04:38:41 PM »
I just had a 20km ride home and I think that situation is getting worse.
Just in case, since I plan to open the motor, I'll order 2 bearings right away...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/63022RS-Genuine-SKF-Bearing-15mmX42mmX13mm-Sealed-Metric-Ball-Bearing-6302-2RS-/320921392316?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4ab867d4bc

Offline Avantgarder

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Re: Magic Pie I : New noise at low speed
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2013, 08:59:21 AM »
I measured voltages on the 3 hall sensors at the input of the controller :
Black to Yellow
Black to Blue
Black to Green
As I turn the wheel, All 3 gave a pulsating 0v and 5v every few degrees of the 360 degrees of the circle.
This is OK I think.
A mechanical problem then ?  Bearings are on the way...

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Magic Pie I : New noise at low speed
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2013, 11:26:16 AM »
As I turn the wheel, All 3 gave a pulsating 0v and 5v every few degrees of the 360 degrees of the circle.

Your hall sensors definitely appear to be working fine, but I'm not convinced that new wheel bearings are going to cure the problem if there was no discernible movement in the old ones.


I'm guessing that you removed the original semicircular heat sink plate (as well as the internal controller) when you converted to the external controller:

In which case you will have inadvertently reduced the rigidity of the stator allowing it to flex more in a torsional direction under load.
Constant flexing can cause metal fatigue in the radial spokes of the aluminium stator casting, which could eventually result in the stator spokes cracking or even breaking apart completely:

Click image to enlarge.


My money is on a failed stator, but we will just have to wait and see what you find when the wheel is dismantled, and I really hope for your sake that you can prove me wrong.



Alan
 
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 08:51:36 PM by Bikemad »

Offline Avantgarder

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Re: Magic Pie I : New noise at low speed
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2013, 11:55:57 AM »
If the semicircular heat sink plate was intended to provide structural strength it was a  fully circular plate. It doesn't make sense to protect only half of the spokes.

Offline Rodmiami

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Re: Magic Pie I : New noise at low speed
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2013, 01:07:02 PM »
  I'm with Alan on this . You can see that the spokes on the side without the plate are more reenforced . The spokes on the plate side are shaved down or nonexistent on the plate side to make room for the controller .

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Re: Magic Pie I : New noise at low speed
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2013, 02:34:51 PM »
Just to be ready ...
Is it possible to buy a stand alone stator ? Where ? How much does it cost ?

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Torsional resistance
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2013, 01:35:58 PM »
If the semicircular heat sink plate was intended to provide structural strength it was a  fully circular plate. It doesn't make sense to protect only half of the spokes.

I don't honestly think the heatsink was meant to increase the torsional strength of the stator, but it does.

Magic Pies with internal controller have a semicircular heatsink plate bolted to the stator spokes as shown here:


This plate (whether intentionally designed to do so or not) also helps to stiffen up the stator spokes and therefore reduces the amount of torsional wind up within the stator itself when under load.



The radial spoked stator design is very poor for transmitting high torsional load, which is why you won't find many brake discs with radial spokes.
Most brake discs utilise angled spokes like this one:

These are specifically designed to withstand torsional force in one direction only, that's why it has an arrow to show which way around it should be fitted.

To withstand high amounts of torque in both directions (which the stator is regularly subjected to if regen is used) it would be much better to have triangulated spokes similar to these:


The design of the Magic Pie stators is almost as basic as an old cart wheel:
 
but the cart wheel does not have to transfer any torque through the spokes, it just had to support the load on the axle and withstand road shock from potholes and the occasional lateral forces encountered on fast cornering, which would probably have resulted in wheel failure anyway. ;)

The stators could be made a lot stronger (and probably a lot lighter too) but it would require a redesign by someone who is familiar with the strengths and limitations of the materials being used, and fully understands all of the stresses that the stator has to withstand.

Some of the modern 3D design software packages are quite simply amazing, and they also incorporates stress analysis functions which can virtually simulate all of the stresses involved and thoroughly test any design concept before going into production, but I suspect that finding an experienced design engineer to carry out the development and design work would be both difficult and expensive. 

Is it possible to buy a stand alone stator ? Where ? How much does it cost ?

The original MKI Magic Pies are no longer produced, and I'm not sure whether the axle on the MPII is the same or not, but it might be cheaper to purchase a MPII motor assembly for $138 plus shipping:


You would need to swap the stator with yours (assuming they're interchangeable) otherwise you will need to purchase a set of spokes to suit the MPII and then re-lace the new motor into your existing rim.

Alan
 
« Last Edit: October 10, 2020, 11:04:08 PM by Bikemad »

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Magic Pie I : New noise at low speed
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2013, 05:54:26 PM »
Hi Folks,

If you extend Alan's  disc brake strengthening example to the extreme, by filling in all the area between  the angular spokes,  to form a solid disc, the structure will be even more rigid in torsion.  The disc will not be terribly rigid in bending, however.    The heat sink does contribute significantly to keeping the stator round, but it does not make it as stiff in bending as the the other half of the stator.

  TTFN,
Dennis

Offline Avantgarder

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Re: Magic Pie I : New noise at low speed
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2013, 03:54:40 AM »
I found out that GM doesn't sell the MP I stator anymore. Will the MPII or MPIII stator fit in ?

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Magic Pie I : New noise at low speed
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2013, 10:40:49 AM »
I found out that GM doesn't sell the MP I stator anymore. Will the MPII or MPIII stator fit in ?

Is it possible to buy a stand alone stator ? Where ? How much does it cost ?

The original MKI Magic Pies are no longer produced, and I'm not sure whether the axle on the MPII is the same or not, but it might be cheaper to purchase a MPII motor assembly for $138 plus shipping:


You would need to swap the stator with yours (assuming they're interchangeable) otherwise you will need to purchase a set of spokes to suit the MPII and then re-lace the new motor into your existing rim.


As I said before, I don't know if the MKI and the MPII stators are interchangeable, but the MPIII's stator is totally different:

 

And the MPIII is likely to be more expensive too. ;)

Have you dismantled the wheel yet to establish what's actually causing the noise?

Alan
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 08:51:02 PM by Bikemad »